The 300g Touring Binding Thread

[apocequip307]

jdadour, your terminology is incorrect. The binding industry refers to positive delta when the heel is taller than the toe and negative delta is when the toe is higher than the heel. There isn't a binding on the market that is made with negative delta, the only way to achieve that is to shim the toe binding.

For the record, I believe the ski trab gara titan has a -1mm delta.

[turnfarmer]

On the Marker Alpinist, I've measured a positive ramp of +3mm on both my Lupo Pro HD and Roxa 130 Ti. Used Alpine soles on both so I could compare measurements with my Pivot 18s set at -1mm ramp.

These are stated as a flat ramp binding with a measured -1.7mm ramp on Wildsnow. Has anyone found this too feel off in that sense and be too flat of a ramp?




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Tech toe ramp angle is tricky as there is no standardized differential on the vertical location of the toe and heel sockets on the boot versus the iso alpine dimension of 20mm toe lug and 30mm heel lug.

If you are using an Alpine boot with toe inserts, measuring the top of heel lug to the ski, then subtracting the (top of toe lug to the top of ski and adding 10mm measurement) SHOULD tell you the actual delta.

At boot toe socket to heel pin sockets measurement are all over the place, I have two boots that I've measured were almost 10mm in difference to each other.

[jdadour]

Tech toe ramp angle is tricky as there is no standardized differential on the vertical location of the toe and heel sockets on the boot versus the iso alpine dimension of 20mm toe lug and 30mm heel lug.

If you are using an Alpine boot with toe inserts, measuring the top of heel lug to the ski, then subtracting the (top of toe lug to the top of ski and adding 10mm measurement) SHOULD tell you the actual delta.

At boot toe socket to heel pin sockets measurement are all over the place, I have two boots that I've measured were almost 10mm in difference to each other.

Yeah it seems like there is a lot of variation out there. For this measurement, I wanted to keep a common denominator to be as precise as I could get, so used Alpine soles and measured at the same spot on the sole when clicked into each binding. The distance between that point on the bottom of the sole and the ski was +1mm (heel higher by 1mm) on the Pivot, and -3mm (toe higher by 3mm) on the Alpinist. This was the result for both the Roxa and the Lupo.

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[bean]

YFor this measurement, I wanted to keep a common denominator to be as precise as I could get, so used Alpine soles and measured at the same spot on the sole when clicked into each binding.

Convention on measurement is at the center of the pins, just because trying to measure boots is never going to be consistent. And then you get bindings where that doesn't work (tecton, shift, duke) and have to do a best-guess of what an appropriate measuring point is based on the toes or heels.

[gregL]

Tech toe ramp angle is tricky as there is no standardized differential on the vertical location of the toe and heel sockets on the boot versus the iso alpine dimension of 20mm toe lug and 30mm heel lug.

If you are using an Alpine boot with toe inserts, measuring the top of heel lug to the ski, then subtracting the (top of toe lug to the top of ski and adding 10mm measurement) SHOULD tell you the actual delta.

At boot toe socket to heel pin sockets measurement are all over the place, I have two boots that I've measured were almost 10mm in difference to each other.

It's true that manufacturing specs vary a lot, and it's hard to keep track of them all. Bootboard ramp in AT boots isn't consistent either (at least compared to alpine boots, most of which are at 4 degrees). Instead of measuring the height of the boot sole above the ski, probably the best solution is to measure the ramp at the bootboard (also tough because they are not flat) with the boot clicked into whatever binding you choose and compare with your alpine setup (download a level app for your phone).

[paj]

Not sure if it has been mentioned, but anyone know how the heel pin diameter in the Ski Trab gara titans corresponds to release values? There are three diameters, 4.0mm, 4.5mm, 5.0mm and that's as much info as I could find.

[Matt D]

I read somewhere that they are supposed to be 8, 10 and 12.

But those bars are so ridiculously dependent on the ski type and where you clamp it for a release test its really just a guess. Which is probably why Trab dont write it on the site.

[paj]

I read somewhere that they are supposed to be 8, 10 and 12.

But those bars are so ridiculously dependent on the ski type and where you clamp it for a release test its really just a guess. Which is probably why Trab dont write it on the site.

There’s a lot of factors. I’m not sure how to interpret the correlative values. On skimo.co site the way the updates to the binding read is that “‘16-17, 4.5mm pins were introduced for lighter skiers”. And “18-19 a 4.0mm pin option was introduced for very light skiers”. That leads me to believe 5.0mm was the standard original spring and maybe a 10-11din?
I called skimo yesterday and spoke to two different people and got 2 responses. Didn’t speak with Jason so I’ll call back.

A lot of serious skimo people are in the 150-170 lb range. That isn’t me. I’m close to 6’1” and 210lbs, looking to come down to around 195 range but still would 200 or over fully decked out.

Other bindings I’m considering are helio 145s and the ski Trab titan adjustable. Fixed heel value of 12, not sure if that is too high for me. Bindings are going on either backland 100’s or a fatter ski yet to be purchased. This isn’t going to be a race setup.

[I've seen black diamonds!]

There’s a lot of factors. I’m not sure how to interpret the correlative values. On skimo.co site the way the updates to the binding read is that “‘16-17, 4.5mm pins were introduced for lighter skiers”. And “18-19 a 4.0mm pin option was introduced for very light skiers”. That leads me to believe 5.0mm was the standard original spring and maybe a 10-11din?
I called skimo yesterday and spoke to two different people and got 2 responses. Didn’t speak with Jason so I’ll call back.

A lot of serious skimo people are in the 150-170 lb range. That isn’t me. I’m close to 6’1” and 210lbs, looking to come down to around 195 range but still would 200 or over fully decked out.

Other bindings I’m considering are helio 145s and the ski Trab titan adjustable. Fixed heel value of 12, not sure if that is too high for me. Bindings are going on either backland 100’s or a fatter ski yet to be purchased. This isn’t going to be a race setup.

SSL 2.0s have an 11-12 U spring and adjustable lateral release. They also have an unofficial flat mode that works and a high riser position. Great binding. The new version only has an 8 spring but they still produce and sell the old ones.

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[Benneke10]

You should avoid the Gara Titan race bindings. I was in Skimo last week since they had a little sale, and I thought about picking up a pair. They showed me that the heelpieces are totally different with the Titan Varios and Gara Titans. The Titan Varios have a ton of lateral elasticity, and they come in different lateral release values. The Gara Titans have super stiff heel towers, designed for racing while the Titan Varios are designed for skiing. I didn't ask but I don't think the Gara Titan comes in different lateral release variations like the Titan Vario does, pretty sure its just different spring weights but skimo co would know. If you want to go super light, buy the Titan Vario 1 and ditch the heel adjustment plate and replace it with a basic one or mount it fixed. If weight isn't as much of a concern, buy the Titan Vario.2 since it has a gapless heel that seems to work well. They told me the 7-9 version tests at a 9 release, 9-11 tests at 11, etc.

I bought both lol, Titan Vario 1's for Voile Objectives, and Titan Vario.2's for the Volkl Rise 98 skis I just bought.

[paj]

Thanks for the input. The Gara titan does not have adjustable release values. The one I was thinking, and it is misleading since it includes the word “adjustable” is this one. Adjustable refers to the baseplate so it’s adjustable for a range of BSL. But the 12 release value is causing me to second guess.

https://skimo.co/ski-trab-titan-release-adjustable

I’m coming from speed turns which are a lot heavier relatively, and I never did like the rotational riser adjustments.

I am tryin to go light but the added features of the vario are starting to sound more appealing. I don’t want to go heavier than around 255-260grams.

My previous setup has been 188 Salomon q98’s with speed turns and garmont megarides. Coming to backland 100’s 180 llength, sub 250g bindings and likely Maestrales will be much much lighter.

[Benneke10]

Ski Trab also makes the Titan Vario 1 in R8 and R10 versions. Skimo has the R10 in stock still: https://skimo.co/ski-trab-vario-adjustable

If you plan on keeping the baseplate, look into the Vario.2. The only downside of the Vario.2 is you need to keep the baseplate on, so you can't toss it aside to achieve a ~150g binding weight like you can with the Vario 1.

[CirqueScaler]

Didn’t speak with Jason so I’ll call back.

Chad quote of the day ^^

[paj]

Chad quote of the day ^^

I wouldn’t be so sure. It’s still early, and I have a lot of questions.

[CirqueScaler]

Not sure if you saw this thread from the last few weeks about this topic: https://www.tetongravity.com/forums/...-Tech-Bindings

[paj]

I did not see that thread, CS. Thanks for the link there is good discussion in there.

I think I’m over complicating the decision. There isn’t really a “wrong” answer between hello 145, ski trab, plum 150’s, SL’s.

Price does factor in but won’t ultimately drive my decision. I’ve already got dynafit crampons so I’d prefer to retain compatibility there. I really like the features of ski trab (mainly toe piece) so I’m leaning strong that way. I do want bsl adjustability so whatever I get will end up on a base plate. Just got to decide if the added features of the vario line are worth the added weight. The gara titan is super light but a plate will close the weight disparity a little bit.

Right now the ski I have in hand is the Backland 100 180cm, about 1300 g. I’m leaning towards gara titans on plates for the BL’s and I may get a bigger touring ski down the road and put a bit beefier non race binding on those like a vario.

[DGamms]

Right now the ski I have in hand is the Backland 100 180cm, about 1300 g. I’m leaning towards gara titans on plates for the BL’s and I may get a bigger touring ski down the road and put a bit beefier non race binding on those like a vario.

Not a 300gm binding question, but I am really curious about your Backland 100s. Looks like an awesome light, big objective touring ski.

Do you know what the 180 cm length measures on a straight pull, and what the mount point is from true center? Thanks

[paj]

I’ve never actually skied them they are still NIP. I got them for the reasons you stated, and found them on sale last spring. I was looking for something that would be good any given day of year thinking I would only have 1 touring setup.

I’ll measure true length later and let you know. They have a really good flex.

[CirqueScaler]

Note what Benneke said about the titan vario.1 actually being different from the gara titan (vario.1 is better than gara titan because it has much more lateral elasticity). Knowing this, I'd get the titan vario.1s (called "Ski Trab Titan Vario Adjustable Binding") over the gara titans unless you want a blue binding.

I have vario.1s on my race skis on the standard aluminum plate, which loses 30g over the flex 30 plate and looks more elegant, imo. I do think the toe elasticity makes a difference, but yes you're probably right you're overthinking it. BTW, the toe is easy peasy to get into after a few tours.

IMO of the four bindings you listed, the reasons for choosing each are:
ATK - You want a binding that is totally bomber
Plum - Bomber, better priced than ATK (don't forget you get the crampon holder)
Dynafit - You get adjustable release, downsides are cost and keep in mind that the adjustment plate is perplexingly big and expensive
Trab - You get a really nice toe

I don't know that the Dynafit 150 and Trabs are not bomber, but they for some reason seem less bomber. Maybe it is the plastic used.

[paj]

I ended up going with the Ski trab Titan Vario. Thanks for the input it was helpful.

[paj]

Not sure if it has been mentioned, but anyone know how the heel pin diameter in the Ski Trab gara titans corresponds to release values? There are three diameters, 4.0mm, 4.5mm, 5.0mm and that's as much info as I could find.

Answering my own question here, but I bought Titan varios with fixed Release value of 10 (R10) and saw this printed on the heel spring.

[paj]

Spring diameter of 4.5 corresponds to 10, I presume 5.0 is 12 and 4.0 is 8. Approximately. Might be 7-8, 9-10, 11-12.

[Benneke10]

My Titan Vario.2 7-9 release version also have 4.5mm steel springs, but Skimo says they're pretty much a 9 so makes sense 4.5mm is around 9-10 release value

[LiveLarger]

I'm new to the sub 300 gram world of bindings and I have been reading up on the Ski Trab Titan Vario 2 and the Marker Alpinist.

I'm planing on mounting up a pair of either on 112mm skis in the 1600 gram range. I haven't found anyone talking about wether any of these can drive "wide" skis? This is purely a touring setup.

Anyone who can recommend either of these? I hear people say the Vario 2 skis "damp" and I like that. Also I'm skeptical about the Alpinist, after all the issues with the king pins.

[Benneke10]

There has been extensive discussion on this thread and others, you won't have issues driving lightweight 112mm skis with light bindings. If you can get your hands on a pair of Titan Vario 2's before they sell out, they are the best performing binding in the weight class in terms of dampness and elasticity.