The 300g Touring Binding Thread

**LiveLarger** · 12-07-2021, 11:32 AM

Originally Posted by Benneke10

There has been extensive discussion on this thread and others, you won't have issues driving lightweight 112mm skis with light bindings. If you can get your hands on a pair of Titan Vario 2's before they sell out, they are the best performing binding in the weight class in terms of dampness and elasticity.

Thank you!

**bean** · 12-07-2021, 06:39 PM

I have zero experience with any Trab bindings but do have the Alpinist and am happy with them.

**skisurfmirth** · 12-08-2021, 11:11 AM

Originally Posted by Benneke10

There has been extensive discussion on this thread and others, you won't have issues driving lightweight 112mm skis with light bindings. If you can get your hands on a pair of Titan Vario 2's before they sell out, they are the best performing binding in the weight class in terms of dampness and elasticity.

I only spent a day on the Vario and they did ski great. However I found them super frustrating to use. The toe doesn’t lock open to get into, had to hold it open. And I’m far to use to easy 3 tier risers. Having to turn the heel by hand to get to other riser options was awful. I was happy to get back on my MTN.

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**CirqueScaler** · 12-08-2021, 12:16 PM

I've had a few days on the Vario 2 and don't really feel any elasticity when skiing. I'm not the most perceptive skier, but this has been corroborated by others. I'll update later when I've skied more. Gapless is definitely safer but I don't think it's noticeably better skiing. I'm considering trading for Gara Titans or Vario 1s.

The toe, though, is really awesome.

I have no use for add'l risers.

**Climber Joe** · 12-16-2021, 06:55 PM

Originally Posted by CirqueScaler

I've had a few days on the Vario 2 and don't really feel any elasticity when skiing. I'm not the most perceptive skier, but this has been corroborated by others. I'll update later when I've skied more. Gapless is definitely safer but I don't think it's noticeably better skiing. I'm considering trading for Gara Titans or Vario 1s.

The toe, though, is really awesome.

I have no use for add'l risers.

I don’t understand what you mean by not feeling elasticity. All it does is prevent pre-release better so you can run a lower release value safely. I don’t think you’re supposed to feel it

**dub_xion** · 12-18-2021, 10:12 AM

Originally Posted by Climber Joe

I don’t understand what you mean by not feeling elasticity. All it does is prevent pre-release better so you can run a lower release value safely. I don’t think you’re supposed to feel it

EDIT- after writing the below I’m changing my mind. anything that will help a tech binding ski more smoothly is worth trying and probably worth the 50-80g.
————————————-
I think some people who put a *lot* of time on different tech bindings would feel a difference, and they’re the ones doing reviews (eg Blister reviewers). They write about the difference and readers create a mental fabrication of them feeling different (guilty!). I mean there probably is a significant difference between how a Trofeo and a Voyager XIV skis when you’re mach chicken through a 50deg slot on 191cm/115mm skis (haven’t been there), but yeah, the main advantage is preventing pre-release with the toes in ski mode.

OTOH, anything that will help a tech binding feel smoother is probably better, and I’d probably prefer Vario

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**Lindahl** · 12-18-2021, 10:58 AM

I've reviewed and skied a lot of tech bindings. The biggest difference I've noticed is in power transfer. Tecton, VIpec, Kingpin, Shift, all have it. Whether you care or not about this is pretty personal. I don't care at all, since I'm either not in the resort or I'm skiing soft snow. The difference in smoothness across the tech bindings (except Shift, Duke, etc) is pretty minimal imo. If you want smooth, get a heavier boot or ski. That will make the biggest difference imo. If you're looking at a few bindings around the same weight, I'd focus on features, durability and usability, etc.

**I've seen black diamonds!** · 12-18-2021, 11:44 AM

Originally Posted by Lindahl

I've reviewed and skied a lot of tech bindings. The biggest difference I've noticed is in power transfer. Tecton, VIpec, Kingpin, Shift, all have it. Whether you care or not about this is pretty personal. I don't care at all, since I'm either not in the resort or I'm skiing soft snow. The difference in smoothness across the tech bindings (except Shift, Duke, etc) is pretty minimal imo. If you want smooth, get a heavier boot or ski. That will make the biggest difference imo. If you're looking at a few bindings around the same weight, I'd focus on features, durability and usability, etc.

That matches my experience. You can feel a small difference when you ski similar tech bindings back to back. But within a given class of bindings it's small enough that other factors would always determine which one I choose.

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**LeeLau** · 12-18-2021, 11:49 AM

Originally Posted by I've seen black diamonds!

That matches my experience. You can feel a small difference when you ski similar tech bindings back to back. But within a given class of bindings it's small enough that other factors would always determine which one I choose.

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Third to Lindahl and ISBD. The difference is back in resort. For soft snow many won't feel a difference

**XXX-er** · 12-18-2021, 12:10 PM

Originally Posted by Lindahl

I've reviewed and skied a lot of tech bindings. The biggest difference I've noticed is in power transfer. Tecton, VIpec, Kingpin, Shift, all have it. Whether you care or not about this is pretty personal. I don't care at all, since I'm either not in the resort or I'm skiing soft snow. The difference in smoothness across the tech bindings (except Shift, Duke, etc) is pretty minimal imo. If you want smooth, get a heavier boot or ski. That will make the biggest difference imo. If you're looking at a few bindings around the same weight, I'd focus on features, durability and usability, etc.

Ha ! I have always suspected ^^as much, even with brakes and "safety release " a tech binding is half the weight of a frame binding

**Samski360** · 01-11-2022, 02:25 PM

Can anyone compare either the MTN/Backland and/or Alpinist 12 with the ATK Freeraider 14s? I've been really happy with the MTNs over the past few seasons, and I've got a pair of BNIB alpinists sitting under the bench that I got on a deal. But I'm about to mount some new skis as my go anywhere/do anything touring ski. The goal is to have a ski light enough for big days without walking away from my prize line due to insufficient equipment. I don't fully trust my MTNs when in the air, though I don't have a specific reason why.

The skis and boots I have dialed (ZGTP and Black Crows Atris). I'm wondering if the ATKs will be a worthwhile upgrade in terms of safety (release reliability) and skiing performance over either the MTN or Alpinist, especially when it comes to airs and drops.

This setup would be used hardly, if ever, in the resort. I'm about 180lbs/5'9. I could just mount what I have, but I'd prefer to sell what i have and buy something else if there's a meaningfully better option out there.

**jacob_dbu** · 01-11-2022, 03:04 PM

I had the MTN and now have Moment Voyagers (Moment's version of the ATK Freeraider).

The MTNs are great bindings, no doubt. But the Voyagers are better. They ski better, it's easier to put the risers up and down, and I trust them more since they're not a U-spring. I love the freeride spacer, although you can makeshift one on the MTN the ATK one is just great.

The main advantage I see to the MTNs is that they are probably more robust if you're out in the middle of fucking nowhere. The heel has a small bit of non-metal on ATKs. But I'm pretty light (160lbs) and am not too hard on my gear and 90% of the time I'm pretty close back to civilization/help that I'm not too worried about that.

To me the ATKs are the gold standard touring binding in terms of features/weight/ease of use.

**Samski360** · 01-11-2022, 04:54 PM

Thanks! That's a pretty strong endorsement for the Freeraider/Voyagers. I am very curious about the freeride spacer concept. To me, it makes a lot of sense.

It looks like the ATK universal freeride spacer will work with MTN (I'm measuring the heel height of the ZGTP at about 16mm above the bench in the binding (not mounted).

Also curious to hear if anyone else has experience with both bindings.

**Robik** · 01-11-2022, 05:12 PM

Originally Posted by Samski360

Can anyone compare either the MTN/Backland and/or Alpinist 12 with the ATK Freeraider 14s? I've been really happy with the MTNs over the past few seasons, and I've got a pair of BNIB alpinists sitting under the bench that I got on a deal. But I'm about to mount some new skis as my go anywhere/do anything touring ski. The goal is to have a ski light enough for big days without walking away from my prize line due to insufficient equipment. I don't fully trust my MTNs when in the air, though I don't have a specific reason why.

The skis and boots I have dialed (ZGTP and Black Crows Atris). I'm wondering if the ATKs will be a worthwhile upgrade in terms of safety (release reliability) and skiing performance over either the MTN or Alpinist, especially when it comes to airs and drops.

This setup would be used hardly, if ever, in the resort. I'm about 180lbs/5'9. I could just mount what I have, but I'd prefer to sell what i have and buy something else if there's a meaningfully better option out there.

PM me if you decide to pass a deal on your Alpinist 12, might be interested

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**CaliBrit** · 01-11-2022, 06:11 PM

Originally Posted by Samski360

Can anyone compare either the MTN/Backland and/or Alpinist 12 with the ATK Freeraider 14s? I've been really happy with the MTNs over the past few seasons, and I've got a pair of BNIB alpinists sitting under the bench that I got on a deal. But I'm about to mount some new skis as my go anywhere/do anything touring ski. The goal is to have a ski light enough for big days without walking away from my prize line due to insufficient equipment. I don't fully trust my MTNs when in the air, though I don't have a specific reason why.

The skis and boots I have dialed (ZGTP and Black Crows Atris). I'm wondering if the ATKs will be a worthwhile upgrade in terms of safety (release reliability) and skiing performance over either the MTN or Alpinist, especially when it comes to airs and drops.

This setup would be used hardly, if ever, in the resort. I'm about 180lbs/5'9. I could just mount what I have, but I'd prefer to sell what i have and buy something else if there's a meaningfully better option out there.

If you feel pretty dialed, one point to note that the alpinist is a lot flatter heel to toe than the mtn or fr14. 7mm or so different

I notice it. And got rid of alpinist because of it. You may not. Voyager from moment is also flatter. I ski the fr14 and have no criticisms.

**Dromond** · 01-11-2022, 07:37 PM

Originally Posted by CaliBrit

If you feel pretty dialed, one point to note that the alpinist is a lot flatter heel to toe than the mtn or fr14. 7mm or so different

I notice it. And got rid of alpinist because of it. You may not. Voyager from moment is also flatter. I ski the fr14 and have no criticisms.

Is the Moment Voyager identical to the ATK Freeraider? I ask just because their website lists 7mm heel to toe drop while the skimo table lists +11.5mm delta for the Freeraider. Maybe the measurements are a bit different but it’s still the same binding.

https://www.momentskis.com/products/voyager-xvi

https://skimo.co/pin-heights

**Samski360** · 01-11-2022, 07:40 PM

Originally Posted by CaliBrit

If you feel pretty dialed, one point to note that the alpinist is a lot flatter heel to toe than the mtn or fr14. 7mm or so different

I notice it. And got rid of alpinist because of it. You may not. Voyager from moment is also flatter. I ski the fr14 and have no criticisms.

That's good info. I only really noticed ramp angle a few years ago when I had F1s (lots of forward lean) with Speed Radicals (Lots of ramp). That was a terrible combination.

**CaliBrit** · 01-11-2022, 07:43 PM

Originally Posted by Dromond

Is the Moment Voyager identical to the ATK Freeraider? I ask just because their website lists 7mm heel to toe drop while the skimo table lists +11.5mm delta for the Freeraider. Maybe the measurements are a bit different but it’s still the same binding.

https://www.momentskis.com/products/voyager-xvi

https://skimo.co/pin-heights

Voyager has different toe piece that is thicker reducing the drop. Not quite the same.

**Benneke10** · 01-11-2022, 07:54 PM

ATK makes a 4mm shim to bring the Raider toe height in line with the Voyager https://www.haganskimountaineering.c...2-pro-toe-shim

Note that the FR16 ships with the shim included

**jacob_dbu** · 01-11-2022, 08:19 PM

Besides the ramp angle they are otherwise identical.

**Dromond** · 01-11-2022, 09:58 PM

Originally Posted by Benneke10

ATK makes a 4mm shim to bring the Raider toe height in line with the Voyager https://www.haganskimountaineering.c...2-pro-toe-shim

Note that the FR16 ships with the shim included

That’s exactly the info I was looking for. Thanks!

The delta variation between tech bindings is crazy. I assume it’s because the tech toe can be so low to the ski that unless the heel pins are also super low (low tech style heel) or the toe mount is shimmed up, the delta gets really high really fast. I need zero delta with my current touring boots which limits binding choice even with a shim added. I wish every tech toe had a shim/plate option to bring it to zero delta without adding too much weight.

**climberevan** · 01-11-2022, 10:11 PM

Originally Posted by Samski360

Also curious to hear if anyone else has experience with both bindings.

If choosing between those, ATK Raider is the easy winner. I've had both. I gave the MTN mounted skis to the GF so I could get another set of ATKs.

I'm only 140#, and only ski soft snow, so I can't really comment on their resistance to hudge loads, but usability and fit/finish is better with ATK.

I remain skeptical of the utility of "freeride spacers", but if the weight penalty doesn't bother you, I suppose there is no other downside.

**Samski360** · 01-11-2022, 11:45 PM

Looks like the toe shims are available from skimo too: https://skimo.co/atk-binding-parts and include longer screws.

But $70 seems like a lot of money for shims.

**JRainey** · 01-12-2022, 02:15 AM

I also think all the pure techs feel the same in real world conditions, and so prefer to go light as possible. I have the old FR14 heel attached directly, without adjustment track (race style, which was possible on the OG w/gap ones). Then speed radical toes.

The freeride spacer makes them ski as good as the kingpin, with better power through the tail. I stopped using them as I don't use tech bindings anymore around lifts. If I A/B w/o spacer I can feel the float, but after two outings I don't notice in softish snow and hard snow touring I'm slowing down anyway.

The old freeride spacer (not the prongs) caused issues in and out of gondolas as a little bit of ice would put me in telemode quick, but very solvable if you're on top of it. Touring knocks the snow off, so no issues.

Radical toes with a race style heel are my preferred frankenbinding as you get a reliable toe and a heel that gets 90% performance of anything bigger, at less weight, complexity, and ramp angle.

I jump, never lock the toes, weigh 150/160 (holidays ya know)

Shifts are great, but it's hard to justify the weight for starting from the bottom, pure touring.

**paal** · 01-12-2022, 02:23 AM

As mentioned, the flat stance of the Alpinist may be a huge deal for some. (good or bad)
I specifically bough mine because of this fact (and the price + light weight) I've used large toe-shims on all my previous tech-bindings to compensate, but the Alpinist is close to perfectly flat, so no need. Some people would even probably want to shim the heel on these(!?) I dunno...

* They ski "great" (meaning i cannot really tell a difference compared to my various radical gens)
* The brakes are the worst I've ever seen. Close to useless.
* The mechanism that releases/engages the brakes can easily get covered in ice. Annoying but no big deal.
* There is only one heel riser. You can rotate the entire rear part to have this riser engage lower, but that is just super annoying and I never bother. I wish there were 2 risers, one a little lower and one a little higher than the current one.

All in all I would probably buy it again just because of the flat stance, weight and price.
None of the "features" impress me though.