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  1. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by Summit View Post
    I ski them. So does the wife. Good binding.
    Any concerns with them being so new? Think I could bend the brakes wider? I have eyes on a pair for $350
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  2. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by auvgeek View Post
    IMHO, u-springs suffer three major problems, though most of them are (at least partially) alleviated in the new class of "speed touring" u-spring bindings:

    1. Lack of adjustable release value (RV) aka DIN on an alpine binding. Race bindings have zero adjustability -- the RV is what it is. Speed touring binders have a different options for some form of adjustable release: some offer adjustable lateral release with fixed vertical release (Dynafit SSL), some offer different weight springs (MTN, ATK/BD Helio 145 ), etc. For some people, this lack of adjustable release is less safe. Others (like myself) use various explanations/rationalizations to make themselves think it's fine. Some take a SSL and dremel the U-spring until the vertical release is where they want it. Yikes.

    2. Lack of riser heights. Race bindings have a single flap = one riser height. Speed touring bindings get pretty close to a classic tech binder with flat + 2 heights, though sometimes this requires rotating the heel by hand.

    3. U-springs wear = slop. Again, more of a problem on race bindings with titanium u-springs, but steel wears out, too. Yes, you can replace the u-spring, but that kinda sucks to do. Though frankly, I'm not sure if this is worse than slop in the bsl adjustment worm screw...

    In the other thread, Summit mentioned a research paper that concluded U-springs were less safe than non-U-springs, even when the RV was set perfectly. But I can't speak to that because I can't find the paper.

    Personally, I'm really excited for the newest class of 200g - 300g non-U-spring options, mostly from ATK it seems. The BD Helio 200 (ATK Haute Route) without adjustment plate is 165g and features adjustable lateral and vertical release with 3 riser heights. The ATK Crest is 280g with integrated adjustment plate with forward travel to prevent pre-release due to ski flex and a brake. Really awesome at 280g. Unfortunately, neither of these options have been out that long and I don't know personally anyone who's opinion I trust who owns them.

    And then we have this new 49g monstrosity from Dynafit:
    Attachment 268900

    https://skimo.co/dynafit-p49-bindings
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  3. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by auvgeek View Post
    IMHO, u-springs suffer three major problems, though most of them are (at least partially) alleviated in the new class of "speed touring" u-spring bindings:

    1. Lack of adjustable release value (RV) aka DIN on an alpine binding. Race bindings have zero adjustability -- the RV is what it is. Speed touring binders have a different options for some form of adjustable release: some offer adjustable lateral release with fixed vertical release (Dynafit SSL), some offer different weight springs (MTN, ATK/BD Helio 145 ), etc. For some people, this lack of adjustable release is less safe. Others (like myself) use various explanations/rationalizations to make themselves think it's fine. Some take a SSL and dremel the U-spring until the vertical release is where they want it. Yikes.

    2. Lack of riser heights. Race bindings have a single flap = one riser height. Speed touring bindings get pretty close to a classic tech binder with flat + 2 heights, though sometimes this requires rotating the heel by hand.

    3. U-springs wear = slop. Again, more of a problem on race bindings with titanium u-springs, but steel wears out, too. Yes, you can replace the u-spring, but that kinda sucks to do. Though frankly, I'm not sure if this is worse than slop in the bsl adjustment worm screw...

    In the other thread, Summit mentioned a research paper that concluded U-springs were less safe than non-U-springs, even when the RV was set perfectly. But I can't speak to that because I can't find the paper.

    Personally, I'm really excited for the newest class of 200g - 300g non-U-spring options, mostly from ATK it seems. The BD Helio 200 (ATK Haute Route) without adjustment plate is 165g and features adjustable lateral and vertical release with 3 riser heights. The ATK Crest is 280g with integrated adjustment plate with forward travel to prevent pre-release due to ski flex and a brake. Really awesome at 280g. Unfortunately, neither of these options have been out that long and I don't know personally anyone who's opinion I trust who owns them.

    And then we have this new 49g monstrosity from Dynafit:
    Attachment 268900

    https://skimo.co/dynafit-p49-bindings
    The Dynafit package for dental surgeons, not lowly dentists. $3300 w/ the batman slippers? WTF?

  4. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by alpinevibes View Post
    The Dynafit package for dental surgeons, not lowly dentists. $3300 w/ the batman slippers? WTF?
    Yeah, but you get a free pair of Batman slippers for that price ;-)

    ... Thom

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  5. #130
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    Thanks for the post auvgeek! What is the "auv" anyway?
    sproing!

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  6. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by auvgeek View Post
    Personally, I'm really excited for the newest class of 200g - 300g non-U-spring options, mostly from ATK it seems. The BD Helio 200 (ATK Haute Route) without adjustment plate is 165g and features adjustable lateral and vertical release with 3 riser heights. The ATK Crest is 280g with integrated adjustment plate with forward travel to prevent pre-release due to ski flex and a brake. Really awesome at 280g. Unfortunately, neither of these options have been out that long and I don't know personally anyone who's opinion I trust who owns them.
    FYI the ATK Haute Route, also known as the ATK RT with a race toe has been out for a very long time. I would consider it very well tested and reliable. Just because it has a new name and now being distributed by BD as of this year does not make it a new product

  7. #132
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    so what are the sub 300g options for heavy guys? mtn with the expert spring, tlt speed, superlite 2.0 what else? most of these bindings seem to specify an rv of 10 max. what would you pick if it needed to go to 11 or 12 and keep it under 300g?

  8. #133
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    Oct 2017
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    I believe the MTN with an expert spring is supposed to be an RV of 11 or 12.

    BUT I think smooth skiing becomes the biggest factor. I am 165 lbs and I've done a couple 15+ foot drops on my MTN's with the stock spring but that margin for error is much slimmer than burlier touring bindings. With no elastic travel at a certain weight, you will likely to blow out of a lighter binding in variable snow at inopportune times.

    It might be worth looking at the Ion LT 12 which is heavier.

    Quote Originally Posted by nickel View Post
    so what are the sub 300g options for heavy guys? mtn with the expert spring, tlt speed, superlite 2.0 what else? most of these bindings seem to specify an rv of 10 max. what would you pick if it needed to go to 11 or 12 and keep it under 300g?

  9. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tailwind View Post
    I believe the MTN with an expert spring is supposed to be an RV of 11 or 12.

    BUT I think smooth skiing becomes the biggest factor. I am 165 lbs and I've done a couple 15+ foot drops on my MTN's with the stock spring but that margin for error is much slimmer than burlier touring bindings. With no elastic travel at a certain weight, you will likely to blow out of a lighter binding in variable snow at inopportune times.

    It might be worth looking at the Ion LT 12 which is heavier.
    I ski both the g3 ion and the mtn, and i see or feel no difference in elasticity.

    In the g3 there is a spring that supposedly keeps the heel flush against the boot, but it's very week so it really doesn't work like an alpine binding as far as elasticity is concerned.

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  10. #135
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    I don’t think the Ion will be significantly better but you can adjust the rv to ‘12’ whatever that really means and the toe piece is slightly burlier. I would still consider the Ion to have no real elastic travel.

    The lightest bindings with ‘real’ elastic travel would be a Vipec.


    Quote Originally Posted by rod9301 View Post
    I ski both the g3 ion and the mtn, and i see or feel no difference in elasticity.

    In the g3 there is a spring that supposedly keeps the heel flush against the boot, but it's very week so it really doesn't work like an alpine binding as far as elasticity is concerned.

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  11. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by timmaio View Post
    FYI the ATK Haute Route, also known as the ATK RT with a race toe has been out for a very long time. I would consider it very well tested and reliable. Just because it has a new name and now being distributed by BD as of this year does not make it a new product
    No, I understand that BD just rebranded existing ATK bindings that have already been released. I had forgotten that the Haute Route was the same heel as the RT 2.0. But still, I thought that heel was in it's third season, which isn't new but isn't a "very long time" to me.

    But frankly, you're correct: my view is biased because I don't know anyone who skis ATK bindings and they don't seem to have a big following here (either in NA or TGR-land) so they could have a whole slew of failures and I wouldn't really know about it. I'm excited for the BD distribution because then we might see widespread adoption, and I can get a better handle on their failure rate firsthand.

    Quote Originally Posted by nickel View Post
    so what are the sub 300g options for heavy guys? mtn with the expert spring, tlt speed, superlite 2.0 what else? most of these bindings seem to specify an rv of 10 max. what would you pick if it needed to go to 11 or 12 and keep it under 300g?
    Lindahl was selling some ATK Raider 14 (OG, not the new version). Light and goes to 14. But yeah, not gonna ski like a Tecton.
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  12. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by auvgeek View Post
    my view is biased because I don't know anyone who skis ATK bindings and they don't seem to have a big following here (either in NA or TGR-land) so they could have a whole slew of failures and I wouldn't really know about it.
    Have one day on them in rental boots and they were great. Not enough time to give an accurate assessment, but my limited experience was good.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tailwind View Post
    I don’t think the Ion will be significantly better but you can adjust the rv to ‘12’ whatever that really means and the toe piece is slightly burlier. I would still consider the Ion to have no real elastic travel.
    +1

  13. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by auvgeek View Post
    No, I understand that BD just rebranded existing ATK bindings that have already been released. I had forgotten that the Haute Route was the same heel as the RT 2.0. But still, I thought that heel was in it's third season, which isn't new but isn't a "very long time" to me.

    But frankly, you're correct: my view is biased because I don't know anyone who skis ATK bindings and they don't seem to have a big following here (either in NA or TGR-land) so they could have a whole slew of failures and I wouldn't really know about it. I'm excited for the BD distribution because then we might see widespread adoption, and I can get a better handle on their failure rate firsthand.

    Lindahl was selling some ATK Raider 14 (OG, not the new version). Light and goes to 14. But yeah, not gonna ski like a Tecton.
    Fair enough, I would imagine that the internals of the RT and RT 2.0 are the same. I believe that all changed was the integrated heel lifter and the corners rounded off. And RT heel has been around for a long time. Early on there were toe failures from the RT and I have had a heel lifter failure on the original RT heel(since replaced with a better designed version) but I have never had any misgivings about the heel structurally. I ski them on my 'resort' powder skis and my wife skis them on her no fall mountaineering skis.

  14. #139
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    The 300g Touring Binding Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by auvgeek View Post
    Lindahl was selling some ATK Raider 14 (OG, not the new version). Light and goes to 14. But yeah, not gonna ski like a Tecton.
    Just sold them, but yeah, they fit the bill. I like em better than the new ones FWIW. They have the rolling heel pins instead of the U spring too, which is a nice plus, and are compatible with those heel brakes from the Crest series.

  15. #140
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    My short list for a lightweight Spring ski has come down to the Crest 280 & Haute Route 2.0 (thanks, @grinch for the awesome deal on those Praxis EXPs).

    It looks as if both binders use the Trofeo Monolink toe (springs on only one side).

    @Summit ... was the elastic travel at the heel of the Crest your deciding factor over (for example) the Haute Route 2.0? I realize it's hard to compare if you haven't extensively skied both binders, but I'm curious about any further thoughts.

    Over in this thread (https://www.tetongravity.com/forums/...e-Route)/page4):

    • Post #34, I note that @stuntmanbo commented that the Crest and Raider have elastic heel travel (a combo of spring loading + 4mm gap).
    • Post #62 (@plugboots linked to a Wildsnow photo) - showing the spring.
    • Post #81 (the spring apparently adds 4mm of travel)

    I suppose the conservative approach would be to go with the RT 2.0 (toe having in production for a longer time). I hate being a beta tester, but ATK gives me the same confidence I have with Fritschi (famous last words).

    Thanks!
    Thom
    Last edited by galibier_numero_un; 02-13-2019 at 02:01 PM.
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  16. #141
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    Does anyone know what the delta/pin height on the ATK Crest 280 is? Just did a quick scan of the website and the skimo chart but couldn't find it.

    https://www.atkbindings.com/en/prodo.../crest-280-gr/

  17. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by galibier_numero_un View Post
    My short list for a lightweight Spring ski has come down to the Crest 280 & Haute Route 2.0 (thanks, @grinch for the awesome deal on those Praxis EXPs).

    It looks as if both binders use the Trofeo Monolink toe (springs on only one side).
    They use different toes. Crest uses the same toe as Trofeo(Helio 145) and HR 2.0(Helio 200) uses the same toe as the race binding(Helio 110, SL Evo WC)

    This is why the Helio 200(HR 2.0) is so close in weight to the Helio 180(Trofeo Plus) while having fully adjustable release.

  18. #143
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    Thanks! That's really helpful.

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  19. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by timmaio View Post
    They use different toes. Crest uses the same toe as Trofeo(Helio 145) and HR 2.0(Helio 200) uses the same toe as the race binding(Helio 110, SL Evo WC)

    This is why the Helio 200(HR 2.0) is so close in weight to the Helio 180(Trofeo Plus) while having fully adjustable release.
    So what is the real difference between the two toes? I can tell from the website that the SL Evo WC toe is lighter and more expensive, but not much more than that since the description for both is the same and they both use "monolink 1.0 technology"
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  20. #145
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    And what’s up with this mono link business. Good in theory and good in practice?
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  21. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by auvgeek View Post
    "monolink 1.0 technology"
    No commentary about how well this works... but that is a terrible name for new design, esp. one that isn't intuitively wholesome. I'm almost reading it as "monolink public beta technology". Maybe they shouldn't draw attention to it being the first iteration.

  22. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by margotron View Post
    And what’s up with this mono link business. Good in theory and good in practice?
    I like the theory - fewer parts and less possibility for icing - hopefully with no clamping compromise. The latter is easy for a good enngineer to design (i.e. lever arms), and the ATK guys seem really solid.

    So much for prognostication ...

    I'm hoping @Summit (or snyone else) can pass some field experience to us.

    I'll bet the majority of the intended user base is unlike us - that they could care less about being early adopters.

    ... Thom

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  23. #148
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    Crest 280, about 5 days on them... as user friendly as a non-Vipec/Tecton can be

    Easy step in, easy transition, no prereleases (but really only used in pow and groomers)

    Ramp angle, its ~12mm difference between the front pin center (28mm) and back pin center (40mm). So look at Lous chart for reference: https://www.wildsnow.com/10733/get-u...for-your-ramp/

    Skiing with Alien RS on a Voile Hypervector V6 178... so damn light compared to Technica ZG TP on a DPS Wailer A112 184 with Tectons
    Quote Originally Posted by blurred
    skiing is hiking all day so that you can ski on shitty gear for 5 minutes.

  24. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by Summit View Post
    Crest 280, about 5 days on them... as user friendly as a non-Vipec/Tecton can be

    Easy step in, easy transition, no prereleases (but really only used in pow and groomers)

    Ramp angle, its ~12mm difference between the front pin center (28mm) and back pin center (40mm). So look at Lous chart for reference: https://www.wildsnow.com/10733/get-u...for-your-ramp/

    Skiing with Alien RS on a Voile Hypervector V6 178... so damn light compared to Technica ZG TP on a DPS Wailer A112 184 with Tectons

    Thanks for the info!

  25. #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by Summit View Post
    Skiing with Alien RS on a Voile Hypervector V6 178... so damn light compared to Technica ZG TP on a DPS Wailer A112 184 with Tectons
    In the fall I picked up the UltraVector BC 177 with Atomic Backland Carbon and Dynafit Speed Turn.

    It's insane how light the whole setup is compared to my 186 EHPs with Vertical FT12 (with brakes and toe shim) and Lange FT 130s, or compared to my 186 Renegades with Shifts and Lange FT 130s.
    Last edited by reckless toboggan; 02-15-2019 at 06:36 AM.
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    the situation strikes me as WAY too much drama at this point

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