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Thread: The 300g Touring Binding Thread
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12-28-2018, 01:00 PM #101
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12-28-2018, 01:26 PM #102
Ditto
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02-07-2019, 11:35 AM #103
Why do some folks disfavor the U-spring models? Because you can't independently set vertical and lateral release? Or some other issue?
Thinking about replacing the Kingpins on my Protests for one of these 300g options - leaning toward MTN or ATK/Hagan 12 (no U-spring).sproing!
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02-07-2019, 11:53 AM #104Registered User
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Apparently the U springs wear down your heel insert faster and have less consistent release characteristics over time.
Plus it's a pain to switch out a spring to change release values.
There's a Blister Podcast with the guys at G3 where they discuss this (if I remember correctly it may even be linked elsewhere in this thread).
If you end up going with the Hagans give me a a shout - I can get you a discount code.
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02-07-2019, 12:00 PM #105
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02-07-2019, 01:50 PM #106Registered User
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crests look great. I have a pair or HR2.0s on skimo-y skis and they are the most precise, cleanest and solid light AT bindings ive ever had. Dunno if theres much to be gained with the MTNs at 100g heavier per ski and a U spring vs adjustable release.
Anecdotally I can accept floating pins have better longevity vs U springs. Step in is def way easier too...
@summit, can you remove the brakes from the crests?
edit: Answered my own question i think, looks trivial...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5sPfjzwSr8A
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02-07-2019, 02:16 PM #107
I think I need my bindings to go to 11...
At least 11 anyway. I ski kinda like a fat kid.
Thanks for explaining! The Hagans/ATKs look so sick. But, after having been burned by Plum, I am extremely skeptical of customer service from small binding operations in Europe. I know Hagan is the US distributor (much better sitch than Plum), but I'm still skkkkeerrrrd. Really appreciate the offer, and may very well hit you up. Cheers!sproing!
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02-08-2019, 02:46 AM #108Rod9301
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I can see how the mtn will wear the boot insert over time. I use the expert u spring and it requires heavy stomping to click in.
But replacing the rear bit inserts is pretty easy.
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02-08-2019, 09:53 AM #109
I’m curious about the mtn. Theres a pair local to me, at a good price. I’ve been using kruzpitze heels, and I dig the weight and simplicity, but I’m getting a fair number of prereleases. I’ve been tying down my heel with a voile strap for commiting lines. Do the u springs fatigue in a season? Are people happy with the mtn overall, tough enough for a normal adult skiing a bunch?
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02-08-2019, 10:01 AM #110
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02-08-2019, 10:07 AM #111
The 300g Touring Binding Thread
Well maybe I'm the faggot America
I'm not a part of a redneck agenda
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02-08-2019, 10:48 AM #112
Mostly stops the release altogether. I’ve had a large handful of mysterious low effort releases this year, and thought i had it fixed after warrantying some the old radical toes, but the issue continues. I tend to ski with the toes locked after many years of feeling insecure on pins, and rip skins without taking off the skis, so pins are clean.
I’ve generally been happy with my tectons for pow touring, but the toe seems pretty flexible while touring on firm surface, and they’re just too heavy for big days. I’m looking to find something a bit more reliable than the race heels but not as heavy as tectons.
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02-08-2019, 10:58 AM #113Registered User
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I'm a pretty major weight-weenie, but I think the performance increase from a race heel to an mtn heel is worth the penalty. I switch between men's springs in winter and expert springs in spring. I can't imagine prereleasing the expert spring. It is stiff! Having used multiple pairs of race heels (Plum, Trab, Dynafit), the MTN has considerably less play, especially over time. The pins wear more evenly, and I'd suspect there is less insert wear due to the pins' ability to rotate. I still keep race heels on race skis and traverse skis, but am much more confident in the MTN in higher consequence terrain, and for more frequent use. I also like that I can keep a spare MTN heel spring in my repair kit, and it takes 2 min to replace in field.
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02-08-2019, 11:21 AM #114Registered User
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"Alpine rock and steep, deep powder are what I seek, and I will always find solace there." - Bean Bowers
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02-08-2019, 11:38 AM #115
The 300g Touring Binding Thread
Solid beta and delightful point about field service on the spring. I’m getting closer to grabbing these.
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02-08-2019, 11:43 AM #116Rod9301
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02-08-2019, 12:01 PM #117Registered User
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02-08-2019, 12:17 PM #118Registered User
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I haven't personally used the SSL2 heel. Folks who I trust say it is a rock solid heel. Personally, I dont want a heel that I have to rotate to transition. I'd assume based on the design it will wear more like a standard race heel.
Overall, I think of the MTN as an excellent compromise binding.
Compared to a race binding, i get appreciably better retention and less play. I get enough length adjust to go from a race boot to a maestrale. I subjectively "feel" that the toe retention is also better than any race binding i've used. In winter I tour 80% of the time unlocked on the MTN, just because I can. Dynafit SSL and LTR toes have a really positive engage, but the propensity for cracking is a bit of a turn off in non-race situations - still a beautiful toe IMO, just with limitations. Plum race toe is noticeably less stiff in springs than MTN or LTR. I've never seen a cracked plum race toe, but I have had mine unlock itself pretty often when I wish it wouldnt (e.g. skiing firm snow in consequential terrain). On my current LTRs (manual locking) I've had the binding unlock itself too. This never happened on my previous auto-locking LTR. I would be psyched if the MTN could drop 50+ g, but I'm not too concerned. I've thought about chopping the high riser, but that seems a bit impulsive, and every now and then its nice breaking trail in deep snow.
Ignoring weight altogether, and just focusing on subjective and objective ski performance (which includes retention, power transfer, durability IMO), I'd rank the tech bindings I've owned in the following order:
Trab TR2 (toe and heel)
Salomon MTN (toe and heel)
G3 Ion LT (toe)
Dynafit Radical (toe)
Dynafit Comfort (toe and heel)
G3 ION LT (heel)
Dynafit LTR2 (toe)
Plum 150/170 (toe and heel)
Old trab race (toe and heel)
Dynafit LTR2 (heel)
I'd like to try some of the 200g ATKs still.
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02-08-2019, 12:29 PM #119
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02-08-2019, 12:29 PM #120Registered User
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Awesome. Thanks for the detailed response, Jason. I'd also like to try some of those 200g heels. The BD Helio (rebranded ATK) 200 without the adjustment plate is 165g with adjustable lateral and vertical release and looks sick. Toe engagement is always a question, and I don't know anyone who's used it extensively.
"Alpine rock and steep, deep powder are what I seek, and I will always find solace there." - Bean Bowers
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02-08-2019, 01:04 PM #121sproing!
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02-08-2019, 03:51 PM #122
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02-09-2019, 09:44 AM #123
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02-09-2019, 11:09 AM #124Registered User
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My bad we ranted on about it in a different thread
https://www.tetongravity.com/forums/...-binding/page3
for me I would fall between ranges of a U-spring so do I ski slower on a medium U spring or put on 50lbs and use the heavy spring ?
and then I always set the vertical DIN 1 higher cuz it stops pre-release and I can't do that if seperate adjustment ( or any adjustment ? ) is not possible
SO, I would say some are into light weight at any cost, some are into pretty light with as much safety as the Tech design can offer ... do whatever works for youLee Lau - xxx-er is the laziest Asian canuck I know
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02-09-2019, 11:57 AM #125Registered User
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IMHO, u-springs suffer three major problems, though most of them are (at least partially) alleviated in the new class of "speed touring" u-spring bindings:
1. Lack of adjustable release value (RV) aka DIN on an alpine binding. Race bindings have zero adjustability -- the RV is what it is. Speed touring binders have a different options for some form of adjustable release: some offer adjustable lateral release with fixed vertical release (Dynafit SSL), some offer different weight springs (MTN, ATK/BD Helio 145 ), etc. For some people, this lack of adjustable release is less safe. Others (like myself) use various explanations/rationalizations to make themselves think it's fine. Some take a SSL and dremel the U-spring until the vertical release is where they want it. Yikes.
2. Lack of riser heights. Race bindings have a single flap = one riser height. Speed touring bindings get pretty close to a classic tech binder with flat + 2 heights, though sometimes this requires rotating the heel by hand.
3. U-springs wear = slop. Again, more of a problem on race bindings with titanium u-springs, but steel wears out, too. Yes, you can replace the u-spring, but that kinda sucks to do. Though frankly, I'm not sure if this is worse than slop in the bsl adjustment worm screw...
In the other thread, Summit mentioned a research paper that concluded U-springs were less safe than non-U-springs, even when the RV was set perfectly. But I can't speak to that because I can't find the paper.
Personally, I'm really excited for the newest class of 200g - 300g non-U-spring options, mostly from ATK it seems. The BD Helio 200 (ATK Haute Route) without adjustment plate is 165g and features adjustable lateral and vertical release with 3 riser heights. The ATK Crest is 280g with integrated adjustment plate with forward travel to prevent pre-release due to ski flex and a brake. Really awesome at 280g. Unfortunately, neither of these options have been out that long and I don't know personally anyone who's opinion I trust who owns them.
And then we have this new 49g monstrosity from Dynafit:
https://skimo.co/dynafit-p49-bindings"Alpine rock and steep, deep powder are what I seek, and I will always find solace there." - Bean Bowers
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