The 300g Touring Binding Thread

[Norseman]

PSA: trab Titan vario.2 toes are back in stock at skimo. So basically the Trab toe with the 4.5mm shim and longer screws

Thanks. Bought some to try.

[Benneke10]

Yeesh, $260 for a pair of toes! I have an extra pair of Vario.2's 7-9 I'd sell to someone for not much more than that

[Norseman]

lil steep yes but gearho efriends say they'll make my wildest dreams come true. had no choice.

nah, been interested for a while and didn't feel like waiting

[Benneke10]

I get it, I am a Trab binding evangelist myself. It just doesn't seem cost effective to me to just buy the toe pieces when you can get a full Trab binding for $350-$450 online, and their Vario heels are the best around.

[Norseman]

had other heels laying around to pair with so this works ok this time. i dont disagree with your point tho.

" just think of all the money I saved by spending all that money!"

/s

[Benneke10]

I would be hesitant to Frankenstein a binding using partial Trab components. Both the heel and toes from Trab have more built-in lateral elasticity than any other tech binding so it will not work as well with other brands compared to common combinations like Dynafit+Plum, etc

[Norseman]

Well I saw your comments on this upthread and sort of blew it off in light of other apparently successful Traider-type hybrids, and was stoked on auv's setup and had made up my mind that I wanted something similar.

But auv's prerelease anecdote might be one demerit to the scheme and a back-up to your repeated warning.

How much more lateral elasticity does the Trab heel have compared to the ATKs? I have neither in front of me nor have been paying much attention to the Trab stuff till now.

[auvgeek]

But auv's prerelease anecdote might be one demerit to the scheme and a back to up your repeated warning.

To be clear, I have been very happy with the Trab toe and superlight 2.0 heel last season. Skied it a lot unlocked with no pre-release.

I can't tell you why, but it does feel like something else was wrong here with this pre-release. It just happened SO quickly and easily. Like maybe my heel wasn't seated properly or something? I wish I'd had a gopro on (and facing down) so I could slomo it.

I might see if I can replicate the issue this week. Maybe with an ice ax in hand...

[bfree]

I get it, I am a Trab binding evangelist myself. It just doesn't seem cost effective to me to just buy the toe pieces when you can get a full Trab binding for $350-$450 online, and their Vario heels are the best around.

If you can live with their limited heel risers. I too am intrigued by the Traider idea.

[auvgeek]

I really wish the Trab heel came with an optional freeride space and a second flip riser.

[Benneke10]

How much more lateral elasticity does the Trab heel have compared to the ATKs? I have neither in front of me nor have been paying much attention to the Trab stuff till now.

They have a different feel. I think there was a post by someone else about it buried way down in this thread from a couple years ago that made me switch to Trab initially that talked about how the heel pieces in the Vario series have a uniquely strong "return-to-center" ability, in other words you can twist them quite a bit and they will spring back, whereas other brands heel pieces will generally pop sideways once they get twisted a few degrees.

[Benneke10]

To be clear, I have been very happy with the Trab toe and superlight 2.0 heel last season. Skied it a lot unlocked with no pre-release.

That makes sense to me, the Superlite heels have the second best "return-to-center" functionality I think after the Vario bindings (I've spent some time playing with the Skimo co binding wall lol). They also just have more retention than the ATK R12s in general even though they both advertise "12" release values.

[Benneke10]

If you can live with their limited heel risers. I too am intrigued by the Traider idea.

The Vario.2 has a high riser mode when you turn the heel 180 degrees. If its not high enough you can add a spacer to the back of the heel piece.

[Benneke10]

I am thinking more about return to center(both force and angle) as I play with a new pair of Vario.2 bindings.

Comparing the ATK bindings I have to the Trab the difference is striking. I rotated each heel piece just until it would stay put and not come back to center. The ATK SL WC was the least angle(FYI I also just tried this on a Trofeo and it is no different from the SL WC), an older RT was pretty much equally as poor. The Crest did better, but still nothing like the Trab. A Salomon MTN did similar to the Crest, maybe slightly better. The Trab was just amazing how much I had to rotate it before it would not spring back to the middle.

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I'd like to try the same experiment with the Trab race bindings and Dynafit and PLUM bindings. This is something I never really thought about before

This is the post I was referring to

[bfree]

The Vario.2 has a high riser mode when you turn the heel 180 degrees. If its not high enough you can add a spacer to the back of the heel piece.

Eh, too finicky. Needs to be pole-actuated.
How stiff are those heels to rotate? The ATKs I've used are so stiff it actually hurts an ungloved hand to apply enough torque to rotate it.

[Norseman]

To be clear, I have been very happy with the Trab toe and superlight 2.0 heel last season. Skied it a lot unlocked with no pre-release.

... and that is one of the combos that I intend on trying as I also have enjoyed the SSL2.0 for years but with the stock toes. I remember you moving away from the green toes after seeing evidence of failures in the field, and even correcting me when I forgot a prior discussion of it . Mine have held up so far but I'd rather not beat on them too long with the known problem lurking.

That makes sense to me, the Superlite heels have the second best "return-to-center" functionality I think after the Vario bindings / snip

I'd be curious to see this measured accurately and tabulated. Edit; yeah, like in timmaio's old post but standardized to DIN setting and with more models.

[auvgeek]

That makes sense to me, the Superlite heels have the second best "return-to-center" functionality I think after the Vario bindings (I've spent some time playing with the Skimo co binding wall lol). They also just have more retention than the ATK R12s in general even though they both advertise "12" release values.

Okay, so I just played with mine, and you are correct, though it's not night and day.

That said, I can't see how more elasticity in the toe would cause pre-release. I can see how the lack of elasticity in the heel causes pre-release and limits the performance of the toe, but I don't see how it would be worse than a less-elastic toe.

When I asked skimo co if there would be any reason why I shouldn't pair the Trab toe with the Raider heel they said no. Well, first they said to just use the Vario.2 heel, and I said I was concerned about the RV being too low and the lack of stomp plate and then they said the Raider heel seemed like a great choice.

I'm going to reiterate that I can see elasticity making a big difference when skiing fast and hard, jumping cliffs, etc. Having a ski pop off in a slow-mo jump turn makes it hard for me to believe the binding wasn't "elastic" enough to handle the forces. But of course, I could be wrong there.

Anyway, I do love this discussion.

[Benneke10]

My thought was that the Trab toe allows a bit of lateral rotation that rotated your boot somewhat, turning the Raider heel enough to release but perhaps I'm just paranoid about that kind of thing.

It seems that there is a decent chance you would have pre-released with any unlocked toe + Raider heel in that situation. Despite their reputation I don't think the Raider is the most reliable binding if you want to ski unlocked in high consequence terrain based on friends experiences.

[Benneke10]

Eh, too finicky. Needs to be pole-actuated.
How stiff are those heels to rotate? The ATKs I've used are so stiff it actually hurts an ungloved hand to apply enough torque to rotate it.

The Trab heels are easier to rotate than ATKs

[thecazdog]

This is a cool discussion. I'll add my data points.

I've skied my Traiders pretty hard inbounds trying to test their limits, with the Commander Tour and now the Corvus (both with metal). I've shimmed the toe by 3mm to get a ramp angle of about +9, which feels good for me. I also have the older Raider heel with the wider freeride spacer. I am 179cm, 78kg and run them at about 9-10 release value.

I've had no pre-releases yet, and feel pretty happy about the power transfer of this setup. Where it falls down is the elasticity - it has more than a straight ATK Raider thanks to the Trab toe, but less than a Tecton. And when I've come out of most of my tech bindings, it has been due to being rattled out on steep icy stuff. The elasticity and heel of a Tecton help here...or maybe I should ski with my toe locked more.

Overall, I am really happy with the Traider combo. I feel like I'd lose power transfer without the Freeride spacer...or else the Vario is the binding I'd go with.

[Reformed]

I can't tell you why, but it does feel like something else was wrong here with this pre-release. It just happened SO quickly and easily. Like maybe my heel wasn't seated properly or something?

I've had this happen to me with a Crest heel after transitioning without taking skis off (no ice in toe pieces). Step in seemed normal, but released out of a ski on the first real turn. Discovered hard-packed snow on the heel of one boot from the skin up. Removed snow from the heel of the boot, clicked back in, and didn't have another problem. I always check my heels when I transition now and have had to remove snow a number of times. No pre-releases since. May not have been your issue, but something to keep an eye on/rule out.

[auvgeek]

I've had this happen to me with a Crest heel after transitioning without taking skis off (no ice in toe pieces). Step in seemed normal, but released out of a ski on the first real turn. Discovered hard-packed snow on the heel of one boot from the skin up. Removed snow from the heel of the boot, clicked back in, and didn't have another problem. I always check my heels when I transition now and have had to remove snow a number of times. No pre-releases since. May not have been your issue, but something to keep an eye on/rule out.

Thanks much for the response. I will check it out moving forward.

I think with the superlight 2.0 heels, the step in force is so high that it either clears any packed snow or you cannot step in and have to clear the heel fittings. WIth the Raider heel, step-in is so easy, I can imagine not noticing it during step-in, but the pins aren't well seated in the heel fitting.

Thanks again, I'll be on the lookout for it.

[Norseman]

WIth the Raider heel, step-in is so easy, I can imagine not noticing it during step-in, but the pins aren't well seated in the heel fitting.

I've seen this with my R14's a bunch in maritime pow/munge, and have made a habit of giving the boot heel a strong sideways whack with the pole grip right after flipping the climbing tab.

~~

Thinking about tech binding elasticity a bit more...

For toe pieces with dependent pin jaw motion, like all the traditional dynafit-derived designs, if the boot deflects a toe pin laterally by half the pin engagement depth (keeping that pin fully seated) then the other side will have moved the same distance... enough to release, since the boot moved away from it by the same amount. What is the required heel lateral elasticity to accommodate this motion, assuming a stationary rotation axis at the heel? Over the length of the boot, say, 300mm, half a toe pin socket depth (~4mm?) leads to the rough estimate of theta = tan-1 (4/300) = .76 degrees. Almost certainly within the ability of even rigid race heels to handle with just heel pin/socket movement. Of course this is a simplification of boot movement etc.

But for toe pieces with independent pin jaw motion, as this Trab toe offers along with Tecton etc, the boot can push the jaw twice as far before pin leaves the other socket, so a matching heel with increased elasticity makes some sense. But it's still not a lot of rotation required for this simple case, maybe 2 degrees.

So I'm not sure I buy the argument that an elastic toe like the Trab drives the requirement for a super-elastic heel. But I do think that the inverse carries more weight: an elastic heel requires a toepiece with some elasticity and/or independent pin jaw motion for best retention, since the movement is greater. I think this is what AUV was saying upthread.

Trab toes are super light for this functionality and I'm stoked to check them out in person. Another anecdote but in a different weight class: Rotation 14s are skied super fkn hard by Schirmer in big/fast lines and the elasticity is the key per his gear vids.



Trab vid:

[Shorty_J]

Yeesh, $260 for a pair of toes! I have an extra pair of Vario.2's 7-9 I'd sell to someone for not much more than that

I sent you a PM about these bindings... maybe you didn't get it?

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[riff]

Has anyone here done any mods to increase riser height on ATK trofeo+’s? I’m ok with them overall, but due to hip and back problems I’d like a little more rise. It’s a 5 mm gain to rotate the tower, but it’s surprisingly difficult to do, and most of the time I just flip the flap and go. Before i start drilling or glueing, anybody got some successful attempts to show me? I’m kinda just being lazy here.
Also, i have light high ROM boots and like low angle skinners, so I’ve got that angle covered. It’s more of a thought exercise than a real problem.
Just pondering….


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