Why your SUV sucks in the mountains

[plugboots]

M&S means all season tires, not snows. Better tread for snow than summer tires but don't have the soft rubber.

Well exactly. That was my point. All-seasons are way better than summer tires in cold and snow, and I was making that distinction. At the change checkpoint heading up to Tahoe on 80 they definitely look for that logo.

[El Chupacabra]

Very very few people actually buy summer tires - sports cars and sport sedans/coupes, that's it. They're more expensive and wear faster than all seasons, and unless you are a driving enthusiast, you don't pick those for a daily driver.

Which is why the comparisons between winter and summer tires are bullshit. And within the large world of all seasons, there are ones that will work pretty well in occasional snow (anything newer - with deeper tread - and in the touring or grand touring categories), and others that won't work so well (anything older - with low tread - and the ones more towards the performance end of AS tires, like UHP category, that may have more performance oriented rubber compounds that are harder in cold temperatures).

This is also why pretty much any all terrain tire works pretty well on any AWD or 4WD SUV/ CUV/ truck, so long as it has deeper tread and reasonable siping. That's a perfectly decent vehicle + tire for winter use for those who see occasional snow, like driving up to ski from somewhere that is mostly dry (not covered in snow) in winter.

True winter tires are definitely an improvement in snow. Whether they're worth it depends on the vehicle and where you are going to drive it regularly.

[Norseman]

Tirerack has done a bit of testing. Here's all seasons vs winter
https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests...y.jsp?ttid=103

Stopping distance from 30mph is 59ft on winters, 89ft on all seasons. That works out to coefficients of friction (µ) of 0.34 and 0.51 respectively (actually they would need to be a bit higher to generate those stopping distances in the real world). A good summer tire on pavement can have a cf of 1.0 or more.

Here's winter, a/s, and summer on an ice rink
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GlYEMH10Z4s

stopping distance from 10mph is 21ft on winters (µ = 0.15), 39ft on all seasons (µ = 0.08). Extrapolate to 30mph and you get stopping distances of 200 ft for winter tires, and 376ft on all seasons. That's a long ass way- over a football field to stop from 30mph. On dry pavement you can do that in like 35ft.

What you might be able to take from that is that on snow, the winter tire has about 50% more grip. That means that from an accelerating and driving up a hill standpoint, in snow, an awd/4wd is going to have an advantage on the worse tires.

On ice though, the winter tires have nearly twice the grip. The tread pattern and depth is irrelevant in this case and the extra grip from the winter tires comes mostly from the rubber compound itself, which is much softer. If you haven't handled a blizzak, it's worth wandering into a firestone store or something and shoving your thumb into the tread to feel how soft it is. That very soft rubber, plus the siping, allows the tread to deform and provide lots of very tiny biting edges as well as having a higher µ. I'm fairly certain that bridgestone even claims better traction on ice with blizzaks than the studded winterforce.

Anyway, if you drive in snow on a regular basis I don't know why you would willfully choose to have 1/2 to 3/4 less traction. Once you have actually driven on snow tires you really won't want to be out on anything else.



E: more data:
https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests...y.jsp?ttid=167
https://www.caranddriver.com/feature...ce-data-page-3

both generate in the ballpark of 0.15g stopping on ice, but only around 0.25 on snow.

Boom.

Please recall this post when discussing all-seasons vs snows, all ye tire jongs.

[babybear]

I forgot there was even such a thing as summer tires.

I don’t even bother taking the blizzaks off for the 2 non snow months of july and august here lol

[GPP33]

Tirerack has done a bit of testing. Here's all seasons vs winter
https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests...y.jsp?ttid=103

Stopping distance from 30mph is 59ft on winters, 89ft on all seasons. That works out to coefficients of friction (µ) of 0.34 and 0.51 respectively (actually they would need to be a bit higher to generate those stopping distances in the real world). A good summer tire on pavement can have a cf of 1.0 or more.

Here's winter, a/s, and summer on an ice rink
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GlYEMH10Z4s

stopping distance from 10mph is 21ft on winters (µ = 0.15), 39ft on all seasons (µ = 0.08). Extrapolate to 30mph and you get stopping distances of 200 ft for winter tires, and 376ft on all seasons. That's a long ass way- over a football field to stop from 30mph. On dry pavement you can do that in like 35ft.

What you might be able to take from that is that on snow, the winter tire has about 50% more grip. That means that from an accelerating and driving up a hill standpoint, in snow, an awd/4wd is going to have an advantage on the worse tires.

On ice though, the winter tires have nearly twice the grip. The tread pattern and depth is irrelevant in this case and the extra grip from the winter tires comes mostly from the rubber compound itself, which is much softer. If you haven't handled a blizzak, it's worth wandering into a firestone store or something and shoving your thumb into the tread to feel how soft it is. That very soft rubber, plus the siping, allows the tread to deform and provide lots of very tiny biting edges as well as having a higher µ. I'm fairly certain that bridgestone even claims better traction on ice with blizzaks than the studded winterforce.

Anyway, if you drive in snow on a regular basis I don't know why you would willfully choose to have 1/2 to 3/4 less traction. Once you have actually driven on snow tires you really won't want to be out on anything else.



E: more data:
https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests...y.jsp?ttid=167
https://www.caranddriver.com/feature...ce-data-page-3

both generate in the ballpark of 0.15g stopping on ice, but only around 0.25 on snow.

Best post in here. Thank you!

M&S means all season tires, not snows. Better tread for snow than summer tires but don't have the soft rubber. True snows have the snowflake symbol. Good luck getting the guys checking tires to pick that out. Took me 10 minutes to find the symbol on my new X-Ices.

Anyone old enough to have switched from old climbing shoes to sticky shoes knows the difference different kinds of rubber can make.

M&S doesn't really mean shit. Tire companies are generally pretty responsible about the use of M&S but don't take it at face value. I have BFG KM2s on my jeep (they get the M&S designation) which actually have less traction than my daughters saucer sled on packed snow. I'm talking fucking scary how little traction they have. I'm pretty sure in the 10mph ice braking test Jamal linked above they simply wouldn't stop, ever.

[plugboots]

I love summer tires.
In the summer.

[summit]

Best post in here. Thank you!



M&S doesn't really mean shit. Tire companies are generally pretty responsible about the use of M&S but don't take it at face value. I have BFG KM2s on my jeep (they get the M&S designation) which actually have less traction than my daughters saucer sled on packed snow. I'm talking fucking scary how little traction they have. I'm pretty sure in the 10mph ice braking test Jamal linked above they simply wouldn't stop, ever.

exactly X 2

Kuhmo AT51 have the 3PMSF (3 peak mountain snowflake) and not good at all in the ice and mediocre in the snow. KO2s have 3PMSF are only slightly less shit (and don't listen to KO2 true believers who don't drive snows). Goodyear Wrangler SAs have the 3PMSF and are actually impressively good for a non-snow-tire, but no match for blizzak, particularly if there is ice or its cold.

Real snow tires have super soft rubber compound and tons of sipping! Very good ones have either special compounds like blizzak, Michelin and Nokian studless that add extra ice grip over sipping that matches studs, or they have studs.

[margotron]

Can we get a list of recommended snow tires by price (maybe one cheap, average, high). I have driven Cooper AT3s all over North America but yeah, I slide around.

Other tips: sand bags over wheels really does make a difference.

[plugboots]

Can we get a list of recommended snow tires by price (maybe one cheap, average, high). I have driven Cooper AT3s all over North America but yeah, I slide around.

Other tips: sand bags over wheels really does make a difference.

just go to tire rack, etc.

[simple]

just go to tire rack, etc.

Seriously. The prices are constantly changing. They differ by about $100 for the set between mid range and premium brands. There are coupons. Can this horse be beaten any longer?

[margotron]

Kk well disagree but not surprised since subies are the most popular rigs around here


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[jamal]

I would avoid the mystery cheapo imported brands like, say, saliun, ling long, triangle, etc, but aside from that just having ANY snow tire is going to be better than not. Tirerack and discount tire are probably the best online sources. I've been happy with the firestone down the street for a few things although my own tires came from tirerack's wholesale side.

The thing I have noticed reading the tire tests is that while they will declare some specific tire "the best," when you look at the actual testing numbers like at the end of the car and driver article the differences are pretty small. Yet someone's going to see that and think that oh, Blizzaks are garbage now I need to buy Hakkas. But the stopping distance was the same on snow and less than 2ft different on ice and the nokians are significantly more expensive.

I went with general altimax arctics because they were cheap, but well reviewed and general is a brand of continental and they're made in germany. It's "older tech," studdable (but I don't have studs) and I think shares a mold with a version of the i-pike and an older nokian. I've driven them back to back against blizzak ws80s, and there are some slight differences. Blizzak is better on smoother, slicker surfaces like that really hard packed snow you get on highways and ice. I've been in at least one situation where I wished for either blizzaks or studs, but made it where I was going without much issue. Have never seen so many cars and trucks in the ditches. In deeper, looser snow and slush I'd give the generals an advantage because of the bigger tread blocks and more open area.

I think that translates well to the difference with an all season or light truck tire too. On ice the rubber compound (and siping) are most important, in snow the tread pattern and depth play a bigger role. It's also possible to add siping to your all seasons or truck tires which will make a difference because of those extra edges and more flex in the tread.

[skier666]

I go through cars like coffee...I usually keep on the M&S that came with the car for a little while and then put on winter tires for the SUVs. For ages, I would do dedicated Summer tires from July - early November. On a big SUV, they really do make a difference is stability and handling. During winter/Spring, with three kids in the back of the car, I personally feel like its worth the time and expense for dedicated winter tires to know you have the best scenario when driving through a blizzard. However, it seems lately that a lot of the main tire shop franchises will not mount used tires...new ones, yes. I've had to go to the more mom & pop places to get it done. Buying an extra set of dedicated 21-22" SUV rims is an option but good quality ones can really set you back. The last couple sets of tires, I've just ran the winter tires through the summer and then reloaded with a new set in early November.

[S_jenks]

The thing I have noticed reading the tire tests is that while they will declare some specific tire "the best," when you look at the actual testing numbers like at the end of the car and driver article the differences are pretty small. Yet someone's going to see that and think that oh, Blizzaks are garbage now I need to buy Hakkas. But the stopping distance was the same on snow and less than 2ft different on ice and the nokians are significantly more expensive.

QFT. Blizzaks work great, but I switched to Dunlop winters last season and cannot tell the difference between them, even though the Blizzaks had the title of "best winter tire". Before that my only exposure to the Dunlop brand name had been through golf.

YMMV, but definitely dig deeper into the tests/numbers when comparing. Helps to educate for future purchases.

[hifno]

Probably important to note that the M+S designation on a tire is purely based on the geometry of the tread; it has nothing to do with any real testing of a tire's capability on snow and ice. The "snowflake in mountain" designation is for real winter tires. These have actually been tested for tire traction in snow.

In my experience with my Subaru, I have used all season M+S tires that are supposed to be pretty decent in snow (Goodyear Tripletread, Michelin Defender). With real snow tires, even the cheapest brand, the difference is night and day, not even close. The different rubber compound is probably what makes the most difference.

I find it interesting that people balk at the cost of extra winter tires when the cost to fix even the tiniest dent is more expensive than the priciest set of winter tires.

[apex dave]

We have Nokian Hakka 8s with studs (lots and lots of studs) on our AWD and they are amazing. The road to Apex climbs from 1200 feet to 5000 feet in 32 km. Much of the elevation gain is a series of hairpin switchbacks which means slowing right down, turning hard and then accelerating up a steep, slippery road. This is an excellent test because momentum is not an option. The 8's have now been superseded by Hakka 9s.

[m2711c]

[Mallthus]

Very very few people actually buy summer tires - sports cars and sport sedans/coupes, that's it. They're more expensive and wear faster than all seasons, and unless you are a driving enthusiast, you don't pick those for a daily driver.

Very few people ever select a tire meaningfully different than their OEM tires. On my MINI, I ran a dedicated summer tire and a dedicated winter tire, but mostly because I hated the OEM AS run-flats so much that I spent some real time researching my options.


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[AK47bp]

Can we get some rad tire quiver pics in here?

[californiagrown]

I find it interesting that people balk at the cost of extra winter tires when the cost to fix even the tiniest dent is more expensive than the priciest set of winter tires.

I find it interesting that people use nice, expensive cars as their mountain vehicles. Personally, i prefer driving my 15yr old 4runner with a cracked windshield and multiple nicks and dents on snowy mtn roads. If i stuff it into a snowbank, have another car give me a hard love tap, or catch a nice rock kicked up by a semi-truck, my car is meaningfully no worse for wear. Id be very gunshy of driving a nice $50k+ SUV or truck in winter conditions with all the other cars sliding around out there.

[reckless toboggan]

Yup.

Keep a 4x4 manual SUV winter beater with upsized studded Hakkapeliittas and a ski box for those exact reasons.

I don't understand people who buy $80,000 4x4 road princesses.

[plugboots]

Well, I'm glad my car is not in that group then. I hate driving a POS.

[XXX-er]

During winter/Spring, with three kids in the back of the car, I personally feel like its worth the time and expense for dedicated winter tires to know you have the best scenario when driving through a blizzard. However, it seems lately that a lot of the main tire shop franchises will not mount used tires...new ones, yes. I've had to go to the more mom & pop places to get it done. Buying an extra set of dedicated 21-22" SUV rims is an option but good quality ones can really set you back. The last couple sets of tires, I've just ran the winter tires through the summer and then reloaded with a new set in early November.

finally someone ^^who gets " it " that a trip to the ditch could cost you more than $$$$

can you get plain 21-22" steel rims ? IME tire swaps twice a year adds up so I always buy extra rims for my snows and they pay for themselves on the $$ saved for tire swaps in < 3 years. When i get rid of the car I sell the wheels separately or trade them back to the tire dealer for the next set of snow tires on the new car and If i mount my snows on dedicated rims my tire dealer will swap them for free and retork the wheel nuts in 100kms, same dealer will store the wheels for me but it costs extra

but it sounds like some people can't afford nice cars or snow tires

[jamal]

Also, just because your car comes with 20-21" wheels or whatever doesn't mean your winter set need to be that big. Generally you can size down an inch or two (or more), depends on the brakes. Basically nothing comes with brakes so big you need a 20" wheel, even some sports cars that come with 20s. Going to a tire for a smaller rim is generally cheaper plus the extra sidewall height adds some compliance, which can be nice on rougher surfaces you'll see in the winter.

Quick example, say you've got a GMC yukon with 22s. tire size is 285-45/22. A blizzak DM in that size costs $292.

Or, you could pick up some 18" wheels, either used OEM from some other GMC or steelies or whatever as part of a package on tire rack. That same blizzak in 265/65-18, which is the same overall diameter, only costs $205.

[californiagrown]

Well, I'm glad my car is not in that group then. I hate driving a POS.

Meh, Im happy driving a comfortable, capable, reliable car (while saving a bunch of money). To me, thats no POS, but YMMV.