Can 130 flex hybrid boots drive GS race skis?

[charles martel]

The boot doesn’t really matter. I’ve seen people with 90 flex race boots on gs skis doing a lot better than buddy in 150 plug boots. Skiing well on FIS GS/SG skis is very much technique based. I can’t speak for the hybrid GS skis but I’d imagine they’re pretty similar but probably a little more forgiving.




But at the end of the day it definitely helps if they’re red.


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What PR says, for sure.

A lot of what you're told by so-called experts or insiders is for marketing purposes to sell you more equipment. So, take anything that anyone tells you with a grain of salt if they want you to go out and buy some really expensive stuff.

Next, boot technology has changed tremendously from the days when there were over-the-counter commercial grade race boots, with the only option for high performance being plug boots, which required someone to do footbeds, fit the shell, cant the sole and even move the main rivets that held the upper cuff on.

Today, there are a lot of high end options that do not require a plug boot. There are a wide array of race stock boots that come in a variety of flexes from very high to just above moderate. Plus, these boots come in varying widths. Friends whose kids race at the developmental National Team level do not use plug boots, but work with a high-level boot fitter with lots of experience in picking a boot with the with the right flex, witdh and feel.

All that said, you do not need really stiff race boots to ski an FIS ski. It is about technique.

Above all, you do not need a boot that will feel weird when you ski. By that, I mean, when someone asks you,
"Hey, how are those new boots working out?" and you say, "Well, they're a little bit of this and I'm trying to integrate that into the way I ski, but it's really different." Then, your boots are either the wrong boot or set up wrong.

The biggest change that I experienced and moving up in boot Flex with FIS race skis was the much quicker edge-to-edge movement, which is what somebody else said in the thread. This was due to the higher Flex boot and the better fit. The boots were much quicker in response., but not necessary for skiing.



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[ClayCole]

If you want hybrid boots that can drive your skis you have to spend extra $$ for the self driving hybrid. Then your boots can drive your skis all over the mountain while you sit at the bar in your slippers sipping your martini.

[MyNameIsAugustWest]

“It ain’t the plane, it’s the pilot” you racist fuck. ;-)

Just seeing this. I’m a pilot. I’m offended ;-)


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[SumJongGuy]

Aren't the hybrid boots wider and more prone to booting out than plug or traditional din sole boots?

[gregL]

Aren't the hybrid boots wider and more prone to booting out than plug or traditional din sole boots?

Depends on the boot. If you are talking about something like the discontinued Scarpa Freedom with an ISO 9523 sole, yes. Most of the so-called hybrid boots (i.e. Lange XT Free, Salomon QST, Tecnica Cochise) currently stick to the ISO 5355 alpine sole width of 69mm plus or minus 2mm and many have alpine/WTR/GripWalk options that just screw on.

Most recreational skiers will probably have difficulty generating the kind of angles that might result in booting out anyway.

[SumJongGuy]

Depends on the boot. If you are talking about something like the discontinued Scarpa Freedom with an ISO 9523 sole, yes. Most of the so-called hybrid boots (i.e. Lange XT Free, Salomon QST, Tecnica Cochise) currently stick to the ISO 5355 alpine sole width of 69mm plus or minus 2mm and many have alpine/WTR/GripWalk options that just screw on.

Most recreational skiers will probably have difficulty generating the kind of angles that might result in booting out anyway.

I'm not talking about the sole. I'm talking about the area above the sole and footbed being wider, i.e. more like a snowboard boot above the binding, not the part down in the binding. Look how wide this is below the Apex logo compared to a regular race boot. That's going to come in to play on high G turns.. and in a bad way.. OP question is can they "drive a GS ski?". I'm assuming "drive" means use in the manner the ski was designed to be used in..

[XavierD]

Aren't the hybrid boots wider and more prone to booting out than plug or traditional din sole boots?

Most skiers arn’t prone to booting out, even at the developmental level.

[SumJongGuy]

Most skiers arn’t prone to booting out, even at the developmental level.

Most boots are a lot narrower than Apex boots

[east or bust]

Depends on the boot. If you are talking about something like the discontinued Scarpa Freedom with an ISO 9523 sole, yes. Most of the so-called hybrid boots (i.e. Lange XT Free, Salomon QST, Tecnica Cochise) currently stick to the ISO 5355 alpine sole width of 69mm plus or minus 2mm and many have alpine/WTR/GripWalk options that just screw on.

Most recreational skiers will probably have difficulty generating the kind of angles that might result in booting out anyway.

i have an older (shitty by TGR standards) pair of Dalbello boots that occasionally boot out on FIS slaloms, but they drive them surprisingly well for a 90 flex boot. maybe whoever mentioned lateral flex being more important than forward flex rating was on to something

[XavierD]

Most boots are a lot narrower than Apex boots

Ya, and we’re talking about those other boots.
No one is talking about apex boots but you... I’d say folks looking at apex boots need not be concerned with getting their skis that far over; the boot will compromise well before you get a ski to that point

[SumJongGuy]

Ya, and we’re talking about those other boots.

Are they significantly wider than traditional boots above the footbed? I thought by hybrid we were talking about the kind with the external skeleton and multi use liner similar to Apex but different brands..

[nyskirat]

i have an older (shitty by TGR standards) pair of Dalbello boots that occasionally boot out on FIS slaloms, but they drive them surprisingly well for a 90 flex boot. maybe whoever mentioned lateral flex being more important than forward flex rating was on to something

It's pretty well known that in the high-level racing world (NCAA, NorAm, Europa Cup, WC, etc.) that boots athletes use for speed events are often softer than tech events which I imagine would be a shock to some people.

[gregL]

It's pretty well known that in the high-level racing world (NCAA, NorAm, Europa Cup, WC, etc.) that boots athletes use for speed events are often softer than tech events which I imagine would be a shock to some people.

It's maybe not so well known that the boots WC athletes are skiing in tech events are not the 140-160 flex monsters they look like in photos, but rather are altered by the techs to flex at the 110-120 range to better handle the extreme range of extension/contraction these skiers use.

While it's true that WC plug shells start out at 92-95mm, no one actually skis them that narrow. They fit well enough that athletes with normal feet can wear them thousands of hours per season.

[XavierD]

Are they significantly wider than traditional boots above the footbed? I thought by hybrid we were talking about the kind with the external skeleton and multi use liner similar to Apex but different brands..

We are talking about hybrid alpine and touring boots, Cochise, Freetour, Ranger Free, Lupo, XTD, etc... no one talks about apex boots cause they are dumb

It's maybe not so well known that the boots WC athletes are skiing in tech events are not the 140-160 flex monsters they look like in photos, but rather are altered by the techs to flex at the 110-120 range to better handle the extreme range of extension/contraction these skiers use.

Plastic is still pretty different and much more responsive than what you’d find in a 130 boot on a ski shop wall. Even if their cut down 160s is still not much stiffer than a floor 130, they ski different, due to precision of the fit if nothing else. Not quite apples to oranges, but maybe tangerines to oranges.

While it's true that WC plug shells start out at 92-95mm, no one actually skis them that narrow. They fit well enough that athletes with normal feet can wear them thousands of hours per season.

They wear them for an hour or three at a time, with a hyper thin liner, a wool lined footbed, and heated socks (except while actually racing). Let’s not forget, by the time we get to the WC level, we have already selected for folks who are willing to put up with a hyper tight fit and have feet which naturally fit well in narrow boots. Those who don’t generally won’t stick with it to the level where they use actual WC boots; and defiantly won’t make it to the point of having a performance tech work on their boots.

But yes, over our summer they travel and train with a performance boot tech to continually tweak the fit and performance of their fleet of boots.

A very select few (low single digits) will have their own lower mold(s).

[smooth operator]

Just to confirm that they ski very different as noted ^^^, anecdotally, I bought a pair of plug boots mid season last year, solely because i needed a boot with rigid sole blocks to fit inserts into (for CAST). I got a used pair of Lange ZA's for next to nothing, and at first I could hardly ski them. Way too stiff and responsive for freeriding. I had my bootfitter soften them and the last few days I've been skiing them on the groomers and I have to say that there is a world of difference between them and my alpine boots (tecnica Mach1's). I do not know if it is the plastic, the super close fit, or the stiffness, but these boots are so responsive. You have to stay on your game though, no lazy riding. I am still not convinced they will work well for offpiste variable conditions where you have to absorb a lot of unexpected impacts, but on the groomers they are very cool.
Note though that i have no racing background whatsoever and my technique probably has many more flaws than my gear.

[charles martel]

Just to confirm that they ski very different as noted ^^^, anecdotally, I bought a pair of plug boots mid season last year, solely because i needed a boot with rigid sole blocks to fit inserts into (for CAST). I got a used pair of Lange ZA's for next to nothing, and at first I could hardly ski them. Way too stiff and responsive for freeriding. I had my bootfitter soften them and the last few days I've been skiing them on the groomers and I have to say that there is a world of difference between them and my alpine boots (tecnica Mach1's). I do not know if it is the plastic, the super close fit, or the stiffness, but these boots are so responsive. You have to stay on your game though, no lazy riding. I am still not convinced they will work well for offpiste variable conditions where you have to absorb a lot of unexpected impacts, but on the groomers they are very cool.
Note though that i have no racing background whatsoever and my technique probably has many more flaws than my gear.

Spot on with your experience. Mine was the same.

Here's an example of a 12 year old racer who got some WC coacing advice. Nice technique. She is in consummer race boots. (The link may need to download the file.)

http://youcanski.com/video/jr_technic/Katia_GS_slow.wmv

The next step, which we see here in these two vids, was for her to get real race boots for better side-to-side. The next two vids are her two years later at Stams. Granted she is older and stronger, but the boots, at least for her good technique, make a difference in side-to-side response:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VbJOSOzeSw8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIdVaBIX64o

I ski race stock GS skis with my head Mojos. But, I don't race anymore. They are fine. If I raced, I might have to bump it up to better boots. But, only if I raced.

[Mofro261]

The biggest factor imo is the race boot will be heavier and stiffer in the boot base, some have a shank of metal in them which makes them cold, but less prone to flex in the sole of the boot.

But objectively it was 0.5-1 sec over a 25-30 sprint, so really 5-10% at the time w/ a Titan vs RS140 last time I played with it. The newer hybrids look more capable

[Bushwacka]

On smooth groomer sure...

In broken snow, or powder, well your probably not skiing GS skis there but for me my 130 Mach 1 suck compared to my modified Kr2 because the Mach 1 just flex all over the place where the Kr2 stays solid.

[charles martel]

The biggest factor imo is the race boot will be heavier and stiffer in the boot base, some have a shank of metal in them which makes them cold, but less prone to flex in the sole of the boot.

But objectively it was 0.5-1 sec over a 25-30 sprint, so really 5-10% at the time w/ a Titan vs RS140 last time I played with it. The newer hybrids look more capable

The are several "biggest" factors, not just the stiffer sole, the effect of which is minimal. You're looking at a stiffer shell, much snugger fit with little foot, ankle and lower leg play inside the boots, and very quick response, especially side-to-side. Just look at the vids above.

On smooth groomer sure...

In broken snow, or powder, well your probably not skiing GS skis there but for me my 130 Mach 1 suck compared to my modified Kr2 because the Mach 1 just flex all over the place where the Kr2 stays solid.

You can ski competition GS skis off groomers on skied up late day slopes, in crud and in broken powder. Even shallow pow. Pretty difficult in deeper Sierra Cement, but most skis are for that. I've done it without struggling and seen some pretty good racers do it as a matter of course after a day of competition just to get some fun time in before going home.

[Bushwacka]

The are several "biggest" factors, not just the stiffer sole, the effect of which is minimal. You're looking at a stiffer shell, much snugger fit with little foot, ankle and lower leg play inside the boots, and very quick response, especially side-to-side. Just look at the vids above.


You can ski competition GS skis off groomers on skied up late day slopes, in crud and in broken powder. Even shallow pow. Pretty difficult in deeper Sierra Cement, but most skis are for that. I've done it without struggling and seen some pretty good racers do it as a matter of course after a day of competition just to get some fun time in before going home.

yeah you can I am not denying that.. but what happens to me on my Mach 1 is the ski hitting stuff flexes the boot, where as my KR2 my boot only flex if I flex them. My Kr2 are set up with A tongues(hard to find) and double rear cuff to shell joiner and the WC booster strap. They are stiff than my old Doberman 150, while still be easier to get off and on.

I personally think its crazy to run anything less than a solid lugged boot off some sort in bounds. Which means Plug boots are the Kr2 up until they messed it up.

What I am saying is if anything the skis interacting with the snow drives the boots, you dont drive the skis though the boots..

[charles martel]

yeah you can I am not denying that.. but what happens to me on my Mach 1 is the ski hitting stuff flexes the boot, where as my KR2 my boot only flex if I flex them. My Kr2 are set up with A tongues(hard to find) and double rear cuff to shell joiner and the WC booster strap. They are stiff than my old Doberman 150, while still be easier to get off and on.

I personally think its crazy to run anything less than a solid lugged boot off some sort in bounds. Which means Plug boots are the Kr2 up until they messed it up.

What I am saying is if anything the skis interacting with the snow drives the boots, you dont drive the skis though the boots..

I understand what you mean.

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[GeezerSteve]

Getting this thread back on track: