G3 Zed Heel Turret Failure

[EarlyWood]

[QUOTE=hafjell;5533158]
If by "casing" you mean to hit the water bar instead of clearing it, no..
[QUOTE]

reckless toboggan, clean up in aisle 3

[Whiteroom_Guardian]

I gotta agree with Gunder on the weight weenie stuff. Does getting to the summit 10 seconds faster mean anything at all?

If you have 50 extra grams you are just gonna get stronger when you tour with that stuff and will make up the time difference eventually anyway. Plus, it's awesome having solid gear on the way down.

So many weight nerds out there tip toeing down skiing all slow because they are on super tech light gear. What's the point of skinning up if you have to go super slow on the way down cause your shit might explode at any minute? How is that fun?

[reckless toboggan]

[QUOTE=hafjell;5533158]
If by "casing" you mean to hit the water bar instead of clearing it, no..
[QUOTE]

reckless toboggan, clean up in aisle 3

If by "casing" you mean to hit the water bar instead of clearing it, no..

reckless toboggan, clean up in aisle 3

There. I cleaned it up for ya.

[gavinski91]

I gotta agree with Gunder on the weight weenie stuff. Does getting to the summit 10 seconds faster mean anything at all?

If you have 50 extra grams you are just gonna get stronger when you tour with that stuff and will make up the time difference eventually anyway. Plus, it's awesome having solid gear on the way down.

So many weight nerds out there tip toeing down skiing all slow because they are on super tech light gear. What's the point of skinning up if you have to go super slow on the way down cause your shit might explode at any minute? How is that fun?

I would imagine that a decent percentage of folks buying super-light setups will be climbing with them strapped to their back, in which case that does start to make a difference. For instance, ice climb up a technical route to the summit, and then ski down a less technical route for the descent.

[EarlyWood]

[QUOTE=reckless toboggan;5533383][QUOTE=hafjell;5533158]
If by "casing" you mean to hit the water bar instead of clearing it, no..

reckless toboggan, clean up in aisle 3



There. I cleaned it up for ya.

THIS is why you got the PHD

[reckless toboggan]

THIS is why you got the PHD

That's only a little bit true.

[IanCH]

I stumbled on this thread after ordering G3 ZED 12 bindings, but not before using (they actually haven't shipped to me yet) If it turns out there's an issue here I can always exchange them for some ION's or return them, so I don't really have a horse in this race.

I am a mechanical engineer by training and saw a lot of very perplexing posts by the users in this thread. People who appear to have zero engineering knowledge at all claiming "I don't believe the stomp pad issue" and lots of people saying that this must be a design flaw that G3 was covering up or lying about.

A few things:

1. This binding failed on cycle <100 of use. Fatigue is life is measured on a logarithmic scale, meaning 10 -> 100 -> 1,000 -> 10,000 -> 100,000 -> 1,000,000 etc. For the binding to fail in the <100 cycle range (you might even say cycle 1 based on the story) we can instantly rule out fatigue/wear contributing to the failure, even wear potentially generated by the skin up.
2. The nature of the failure is reproduced in one person, 2 bindings, both at the same time. Obviously this indicates some kind of flaw in these 2 bindings that was present prior to use. I can say conclusively that it had nothing to do with the skiing conditions, the moves made, the speed of skiing, anything like that.
3. Based on point 2 we can also conclude that IF this were a design flaw (the physical shape and dimensions of the binding) it would be happening to literally every skiier who rode those binding hard. There wouldn't be 1 failure of a set, there would be dozens. As much as the non engineers would love to point and yell "design flaw!!!" while smugly holding their bindings of some other brand, that would be highly incorrect.
4. This is restating the obvious, but the flaw here is clearly in the material. We can draw that conclusion based on 2 things, lots of people skiing these bindings without this issue, and both bindings breaking in the exact same way.
5. So what do we do about potentially flawed material causing a catastrophic fracture in a N of 1 situation? we wait and watch. We need to study the other failures that happen and look for a pattern. The manufacturing lot numbers and analysis by G3 will make them more than capable of analyzing the situation accurately. We don't see their internal processes but its likely they have already reproduced and analyzed this failure if they have other bindings in their possession with this material flaw.

I also want to point out that I think many are totally misconstruing the stomp pad fix that G3 put out in response to this failure. A few more points:

1. Typically when a single failure occurs, no fix is issued. It's potentially incredibly costly and totally un-necessary. A single failure in un-controlled conditions does not inherently warrant a response.
2. To G3's Credit, they were able to figure out a solution to greatly mitigate the potential failure by implementing a low weight, low cost, added piece with literally no downsides to regular binding use.
3. The stomp pad seems to be misunderstood by some posters criticizing it (a lot of you do seem to understand though. The point of the stomp pad isn't to contact the boot or interact during skiing at all. The point of the stomp pad is to limit the displacement of the heel if it were to flex like it did in this failure case. Of course you probably need a flawed/damaged/ worn out binding in the first place to even see this displacement scenario. The point of the stomp pad is to turn a worst-case-scenario where the binding cleaves in half into a worst-case-scenario where it cracks, doesn't break off all the way and severity of the failure is reduced. Keep in mind this failure is highly unlikely to happen in the first place.

To wrap up this post I want to ask has anyone seen this failure or a failure with their ZED 12 since this incident?

And no, I don't work for G3 or even in the ski industry, just a fellow enthusiast.

[Foggy_Goggles]

I'll just cut to the chase with a quick fuck you! A not so humble engineer...color me totally shocked.

[Falcon3]

A logical well-reasoned response in a TGR thread? You're in the wrong forum, buddy. Take your 1 post and head for the hills

[XXX-er]

the point of the stomp pad was to mitigate the possible PR cluster fuck and ensuing drama that would result when some pictures of defective plastic parts on a brand new product got posted 14 pages ago AND the sitution went away SO the fix worked becuz there never was a problem to begin with

Not an engineer but I did fix all the shit the engineers didn't design properly


SO there were no more broken heel piece's on the ZED but some folks are complaining that the heel piece moves back when the heel lifters are used, a fix might be coming next year which was i believe a stronger spring to load the heel piece forward

[Meadow Skipper]

It’s all fun and games until the engineers get involved.

[grinch]

Some engines in the rear never learn

Sent from my SM-G950W using TGR Forums mobile app

[XXX-er]

I used to work for a civil engineer who claimed " In uni the engineers would sit around drinking beer and giggling while discussing the square root of PI "

[CaliBrit]

I used to work for a civil engineer who claimed " In uni the engineers would sit around drinking beer and giggling while discussing the square root of PI "

All the civil engineers did at my Uni was practice surveying...

[jono]

I am a mechanical engineer by training and.... I can say conclusively that it had nothing to do with the skiing conditions....

Does not compute. Lots of engineers in this thread. Many bits of truth in the m-series JONG post. But this certainty is laughable: no material failure happens without having a whole lot to do with the loads applied. Doesn't mean those loads were outside the intended parameters. But things don't break sitting on the shelf.

[IanCH]

Does not compute. Lots of engineers in this thread. Many bits of truth in the m-series JONG post. But this certainty is laughable: no material failure happens without having a whole lot to do with the loads applied. Doesn't mean those loads were outside the intended parameters. But things don't break sitting on the shelf.

You can try to take a statement completely out of context and it wont make any sense. In context it is correct and justifiable. You're just a JONG when it comes to critical thought it seems.

I'd set my username if you could access any of the user pages on this broken ass website.

[jono]

Looks like you're in a hole there, buddy. How about a bigger shovel? Or maybe dial back on the overconfidence a touch; some of us practicing engineer types would appreciate it. Being conclusive despite incomplete data and coupling that with an appeal to (your own) authority does no service to your credibility. You got a lot of things right in that post. Now demonstrate your expansive abilities by figuring out how to change your name.

[SumJongGuy]

Perhaps we need a translator?

[galibier_numero_un]

I stumbled on this thread after ordering G3 ZED 12 bindings, but not before using (they actually haven't shipped to me yet) If it turns out there's an issue here I can always exchange them for some ION's or return them, so I don't really have a horse in this race.

I am a mechanical engineer by training and saw a lot of very perplexing posts by the users in this thread. People who appear to have zero engineering knowledge at all claiming "I don't believe the stomp pad issue" and lots of people saying that this must be a design flaw that G3 was covering up or lying about.

A few things:

1. This binding failed on cycle <100 of use. Fatigue is life is measured on a logarithmic scale, meaning 10 -> 100 -> 1,000 -> 10,000 -> 100,000 -> 1,000,000 etc. For the binding to fail in the <100 cycle range (you might even say cycle 1 based on the story) we can instantly rule out fatigue/wear contributing to the failure, even wear potentially generated by the skin up.
2. The nature of the failure is reproduced in one person, 2 bindings, both at the same time. Obviously this indicates some kind of flaw in these 2 bindings that was present prior to use. I can say conclusively that it had nothing to do with the skiing conditions, the moves made, the speed of skiing, anything like that.
3. Based on point 2 we can also conclude that IF this were a design flaw (the physical shape and dimensions of the binding) it would be happening to literally every skiier who rode those binding hard. There wouldn't be 1 failure of a set, there would be dozens. As much as the non engineers would love to point and yell "design flaw!!!" while smugly holding their bindings of some other brand, that would be highly incorrect.
4. This is restating the obvious, but the flaw here is clearly in the material. We can draw that conclusion based on 2 things, lots of people skiing these bindings without this issue, and both bindings breaking in the exact same way.
5. So what do we do about potentially flawed material causing a catastrophic fracture in a N of 1 situation? we wait and watch. We need to study the other failures that happen and look for a pattern. The manufacturing lot numbers and analysis by G3 will make them more than capable of analyzing the situation accurately. We don't see their internal processes but its likely they have already reproduced and analyzed this failure if they have other bindings in their possession with this material flaw.

I also want to point out that I think many are totally misconstruing the stomp pad fix that G3 put out in response to this failure. A few more points:

1. Typically when a single failure occurs, no fix is issued. It's potentially incredibly costly and totally un-necessary. A single failure in un-controlled conditions does not inherently warrant a response.
2. To G3's Credit, they were able to figure out a solution to greatly mitigate the potential failure by implementing a low weight, low cost, added piece with literally no downsides to regular binding use.
3. The stomp pad seems to be misunderstood by some posters criticizing it (a lot of you do seem to understand though. The point of the stomp pad isn't to contact the boot or interact during skiing at all. The point of the stomp pad is to limit the displacement of the heel if it were to flex like it did in this failure case. Of course you probably need a flawed/damaged/ worn out binding in the first place to even see this displacement scenario. The point of the stomp pad is to turn a worst-case-scenario where the binding cleaves in half into a worst-case-scenario where it cracks, doesn't break off all the way and severity of the failure is reduced. Keep in mind this failure is highly unlikely to happen in the first place.

To wrap up this post I want to ask has anyone seen this failure or a failure with their ZED 12 since this incident?

And no, I don't work for G3 or even in the ski industry, just a fellow enthusiast.

I don't know what everyone's beef is with this fellow, save his low post count. Some folks lurk forever and get a login only when they have something compelling to say. Maybe I'm naive.

I'm not gonna claim zero design flaws on the ZED, but his take on material flaw (bad batch) makes sense to me. As far as adding the stomp pad is concerned, if this mitigates a possible 4-sigma failure, is that something to complain about? I guess we should beat up on ATK and Plum as well for doing this.

Contrast this with Kingpin failures where it appears as if Marker found more ways to screw up than get it right (design, manufacturing process, and material failure).

... Thom

[t-the-east]

To wrap up this post I want to ask has anyone seen this failure ?

And no, I don't work for G3.

You mean like, the pictures on the first page of the thread?

[XXX-er]

Zactly ^^ and check the time lines on how FAST G3 mitigated the situ of ONE failure by issuing a stomp pad fix for what was not reallly a design issue maybe just some mis-cast plastic cuz when brand new product breakage got sprayed all over the webz before it got to the warranty dept, G3 had to apply some marketing genius but really the stomp pad thing is bogus

[galibier_numero_un]

You mean like, the pictures on the first page of the thread?

He said "since this incident" which I take to mean his referencing the first post of this thread.

Snowpack is getting thin and people are already have their Summer snark on.

[jono]

I'm onboard that the stomp pad should reduce peak stress in a lot of situations and therefore make a lot of forms of failure less likely or puts them off for longer. (Fatigue explanation was pretty spot on.) What's funny about the m-JONG post is that the non-engineers commenting on what BS that is are already obvious, so calling out his credentials was kind of funny.

[teleee]

I'm onboard that the stomp pad should reduce peak stress in a lot of situations and therefore make a lot of forms of failure less likely or puts them off for longer. (Fatigue explanation was pretty spot on.) What's funny about the m-JONG post is that the non-engineers commenting on what BS that is are already obvious, so calling out his credentials was kind of funny.

Ha, I thought the same thing. I am pretty sure I said the same thing although not so eloquently as he did several pages back. And yea, I am a structural engineer. It seems such an obvious material failure in a small sample size. The stomp pad seems like a very obvious insurance policy to over stressing a potential material irregularity. I am not sure why all the dentists on here are so quick to jump on calling out his credentials. I guess just because it doesn't work with the conspiracy theorists that G# is out to kill us all. I knew those Canadians couldn't be trusted!

[IanCH]

Finally some rational people... maybe I will keep posting here. I was beginning to think this board was really just full of trolls.

Update: G3 cancelled my order as they have no stock left of this binding. I will be buying either the updated version of this of the updated '20 ATK FR14. We will see what the fall brings...