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  1. #226
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    Quote Originally Posted by reckless toboggan View Post
    Good analysis.

    I sure wouldn't touch the Zeds with a ten foot pole given my read of G3's response.

    IMHO it sounds to me like they could EITHER have a sturdy heel turret OR a brake assembly and still meet their lower weight requirement/goal for this binder, but not both.
    There’s also the issue of all of their marketing materials for the brakeless binding very clearly omitting the stomp pad. Based on this statement it was obviously clear from the beginning that G3 knew the pad was required but never showed it. Also interesting is their new kit to modify the stomp pad. The fact that this modification kit has come out after the fact I think really demonstrates the lack of proper engineering going into this binding.

    I suspect you might be getting to right spot here with weight targets. I strongly suspect G3 had a weight goal and did everything they could to achieve that goal even if the product was not reliable.


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  2. #227
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    The reg ion with brake is 585, the Ion LT without brake is 456.

    The Zed is 345 with brake. I'm guessing that if they added 50 or a hundred grams to make the heel turret more sturdy, it would put the Zed weight too close to the Ion LT.

    I'm thinking it's pretty hard to market a brand new binding that weighs the same as the old binding, but now includes a break. Woopie. So instead they go for super light and make the compromise on the integrity/durability of the heel.

    Note: The above is all total conjecture, speculation and opinion late on a Friday night and has no basis in reality.
    Quote Originally Posted by XXX-er View Post
    the situation strikes me as WAY too much drama at this point

  3. #228
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meadow Skipper View Post
    Yeah, but two G3 engineers said even without the stomp pads it still shouldn’t have exploded. Confusing.

  4. #229
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    Quote Originally Posted by lucknau View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by lucknau View Post
    Boo.
    Seems like such an obvious design requirement to accommodate this variation. Bad "gotcha" for the designer.

  5. #230
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    Quote Originally Posted by hafjell View Post
    Yeah, but two G3 engineers said even without the stomp pads it still shouldn’t have exploded. Confusing.
    Agreed, the root cause of the problem is independent of the stomp pad. The stomp pad greatly reduces the stress on the weak link preventing the problem from causing catastrophic failure... at least they hope that is the case.. Too soon to tell. Give it 5 years for the plastics and composites to become more brittle like they tend to do and we'll know for sure. Have fun rocking these in high exposure, fall and you die terrain..
    Go that way really REALLY fast. If something gets in your way, TURN!

  6. #231
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    Quote Originally Posted by SumJongGuy View Post
    Agreed, the root cause of the problem is independent of the stomp pad. The stomp pad greatly reduces the stress on the weak link preventing the problem from causing catastrophic failure... at least they hope that is the case.. Too soon to tell. Give it 5 years for the plastics and composites to become more brittle like they tend to do and we'll know for sure. Have fun rocking these in high exposure, fall and you die terrain..
    Lot of fall and die terrain in the Carolinas?
    Samuel L. Jackson as Jules Winnfield: Oh, I'm sorry. Did I break your concentration?

  7. #232
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    Yeah. They screwed up and they should admit it and own it and take the hit. Really they should have hired a disinterested third party to develop the root cause analysis. At this point they've publicly committed to a line of bullshit that rewrites the laws of physics.

    My expectation is that with the new, raised stomp plates, turret failures will not go away, but the frequency may reduce. At the same time we'll see an increased frequency of release failures due to boot soles getting hung up on stomp plates when they should be turning out of the bindings. The plates, or at least the originally issued ones, have a small contact surface, and zero vertical play, and I fully expect them to get swallowed by the soft tread of a touring boot.

    The idea that the stomp plate was a planned structural design element is absolutely absurd. It's only there as a surface for walk mode. Also I find it impossible to believe that brakes, which will touch the bottoms of thinner soled boots, will provide any real mitigating structural support. It's not like they're locked in place when retracted. They will have as much additional vertical play as the boot allows for. It's clear to me that no actual mathematical analysis was involved in that write up. If there is, I would like to see it, so I can check its validity.

    Also, there's no industry fucking standard for touring boot sole thickness. The bindings were designed for the thickest soled boots or they would be unmarketable. That's the bit that just makes me mad.

  8. #233
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    Do the mounting instructions make it clear that either the brake or stomp pad is required for the structural integrity of the binding?

  9. #234
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    G3 Zed Heel Turret Failure

    Quote Originally Posted by Dromond View Post
    Do the mounting instructions make it clear that either the brake or stomp pad is required for the structural integrity of the binding?
    The ones I downloaded yesterday do, but I'll have to check when I get home and see if my printed copy does as well.

    Edit: actually, no there's nothing regarding structural necessity. Only a statement that you MUST install either brakes or the stomp plate.

  10. #235
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    Sep 2008
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    i should have kept the instructions but it’s not entirely clear. the stomp pads come in a bag with the leashes instead of with the hardware so i could see people thinking they’re superfluous.

    mine are still skiing well so far with mango maestraels in the meadows but i’m going to give them another look before i get on steep stuff.
    j'ai des grands instants de lucididididididididi

  11. #236
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    Quote Originally Posted by lucknau View Post
    Yeah. They screwed up and they should admit it and own it and take the hit. Really they should have hired a disinterested third party to develop the root cause analysis. At this point they've publicly committed to a line of bullshit that rewrites the laws of physics.

    My expectation is that with the new, raised stomp plates, turret failures will not go away, but the frequency may reduce. At the same time we'll see an increased frequency of release failures due to boot soles getting hung up on stomp plates when they should be turning out of the bindings. The plates, or at least the originally issued ones, have a small contact surface, and zero vertical play, and I fully expect them to get swallowed by the soft tread of a touring boot.

    The idea that the stomp plate was a planned structural design element is absolutely absurd. It's only there as a surface for walk mode. Also I find it impossible to believe that brakes, which will touch the bottoms of thinner soled boots, will provide any real mitigating structural support. It's not like they're locked in place when retracted. They will have as much additional vertical play as the boot allows for. It's clear to me that no actual mathematical analysis was involved in that write up. If there is, I would like to see it, so I can check its validity.

    Also, there's no industry fucking standard for touring boot sole thickness. The bindings were designed for the thickest soled boots or they would be unmarketable. That's the bit that just makes me mad.
    Correct

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  12. #237
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    Seems to me the likely reality is that g3 are in damage limitation mode. Aggressively get the word out to use a stomp pad which reduces but does not eliminate the problem. Rabidly attempt (but probably ultimately fail) to remove any and all marketing copy that contains original images without stomp pad.

    It's also likely that they will develop a fix for this issue. Interested parties should watch for slight weight changes for next year, if not late this season. This doesn't seem like the kind of thing you just leave alone.

  13. #238
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    Nov 2018
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    Quote Originally Posted by hafjell View Post
    Yeah, but two G3 engineers said even without the stomp pads it still shouldn’t have exploded. Confusing.
    I get the strong sense from their statement that those engineers were not supposed to say that.

  14. #239
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    Quote Originally Posted by teleee View Post
    Lot of fall and die terrain in the Carolinas?
    Plenty, but not enough snow to ski it most of the time. Highest lift served elevation east of the Mississippi. But we have to travel west or north for harder lift served or hike to with snow terrain. I wouldn't ski that binding down the magic carpet run without having another pair of skis handy.
    Go that way really REALLY fast. If something gets in your way, TURN!

  15. #240
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    Pins at the front & rear of the binding suspend the boot and thats how the design has worked for 20 yrs so I don't buy G3's take that anything is needed to support the boot heel especialy when the 200lb OP broke both heelpieces going mach nothing for 1 run

    my first take is that plastic should not be used for a binding post and then I go back and look at the picts to note that it appears to be the heel piece that cracked NOT the post and BTW Dynafit are also using plastic for the binding post ... fucknose eh

    so then what happened? It would appear to be either material or a design failure of the rotating part of the heelpiece to me, so all we can do is wait and see if there are any more cracked heel-pieces
    Lee Lau - xxx-er is the laziest Asian canuck I know

  16. #241
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    Not buying the "we didn't know about all this boot sole thickness variation" angle, tech insert equipped boots with alpine and WTR soles have been around for almost ten years now, and they all have substantially shorter heel lugs than rockered-sole AT boots.

    Probably everyone who has owned a pair of rockered AT boots has noticed this.

  17. #242
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    Quote Originally Posted by SumJongGuy View Post
    Plenty, but not enough snow to ski it most of the time. Highest lift served elevation east of the Mississippi. But we have to travel west or north for harder lift served or hike to with snow terrain. I wouldn't ski that binding down the magic carpet run without having another pair of skis handy.
    Jokes about mid-eastern terrain aside,

    Would u ride the magic carpet on a pair of shifts ? Asking for a friend.
    "Its not the arrow, its the Indian" - M.Pinto

  18. #243
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    "We were unaware there are many alpine touring ski boots in the market that do not conform to the recognized industrial norm for positioning tech inserts in their boots."



    riiiiiiiiiiight

  19. #244
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    Quote Originally Posted by cmcrawfo View Post
    Jokes about mid-eastern terrain aside,

    Would u ride the magic carpet on a pair of shifts ? Asking for a friend.
    Fritschi or bust LOL
    Go that way really REALLY fast. If something gets in your way, TURN!

  20. #245
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    What is the point of damage control that nobody really buys ?
    Lee Lau - xxx-er is the laziest Asian canuck I know

  21. #246
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    Quote Originally Posted by XXX-er View Post
    What is the point of damage control that nobody really buys ?
    Say G3 had to recall and refund every Zed in the wild or replace it with a totally different stronger heel piece? Are they on solid enough financial ground to pull that off if they had to? Add in the damage to the reputation. Marker and Atomic are still suffering from their product recalls years and years ago..
    Go that way really REALLY fast. If something gets in your way, TURN!

  22. #247
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    Quote Originally Posted by SumJongGuy View Post
    Say G3 had to recall and refund every Zed in the wild or replace it with a totally different stronger heel piece? Are they on solid enough financial ground to pull that off if they had to?
    You'd think they'd buy some kind of insurance against that possibility.
    Quote Originally Posted by XXX-er View Post
    the situation strikes me as WAY too much drama at this point

  23. #248
    Join Date
    Feb 2018
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    218
    [QUOTThe idea that the stomp plate was a planned structural design element is absolutely absurd. It's only there as a surface for walk mode.E][/QUOTE]

    FWIW the boot heel doesn't even ride on the stomp pad while in walk mode. It rides on the horizontal tab that extends from the heelpiece itself. So the stomp pad should only come into play while taking a big hit while hucking. As documented elsewhere, the stomp pad doesn't come into play during normal skiing and actually move somewhat AWAY from the boot in a hard turn. Considering the OP was cruising at low speed, the tolerances of the stomp pad shouldn't matter.

    I wonder if having the stomp pad installed somehow reinforces the support of the heelpiece while in ski mode. Is it possible the lack of support in flat tour mode without the stomp pads would result in weakening the heel?

    Whether structural reinforcement through the stomp pad was intended by G3 or not, who knows? Seems like an extremely weak design along with possible problems with materials in the heelpiece and then compounded by the binding instructions/photos not making it clear the stomp pads were mandatory.

    Giant cock-up all around that's fer sure.
    Do what you like. Try not to arbitrarily be an ass. -- skizix

    the bumps are just better without hooveprints in them. -- lightranger

  24. #249
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    Quote Originally Posted by SumJongGuy View Post
    Say G3 had to recall and refund every Zed in the wild or replace it with a totally different stronger heel piece? Are they on solid enough financial ground to pull that off if they had to? Add in the damage to the reputation. Marker and Atomic are still suffering from their product recalls years and years ago..
    I just don't believe their reasoning for the stomp pad and I doubt all the engineers at G3 do either

    so its lame damage control

    I assume ZED has been well tested,

    so far the failure is a sample size of ONE,

    they will just replace whatever breaks
    Lee Lau - xxx-er is the laziest Asian canuck I know

  25. #250
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    Quote Originally Posted by XXX-er View Post
    I just don't believe their reasoning for the stomp pad and I doubt all the engineers at G3 do either

    so its lame damage control

    I assume ZED has been well tested,

    so far the failure is a sample size of ONE,

    they will just replace whatever breaks
    Better factor in the kind of terrain their customers like to ski and what can happen during another failure of that magnitude where the consequences are a lot higher. People will go to jail if someone dies when falling off a cliff after their binding imploded under them..
    Go that way really REALLY fast. If something gets in your way, TURN!

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