Page 14 of 15 FirstFirst ... 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 LastLast
Results 326 to 350 of 364
  1. #326
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Posts
    8,971
    had a zed installed by a shop that had extra pieces left over and said ‘fuckit’.
    .....I hope you know that this will go down on your permanent record

    http://procatinator.com/?cat=80

  2. #327
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Mt. Baker
    Posts
    1,326
    Quote Originally Posted by hafjell View Post

    So you buy the stomp pad theory? Interesting.
    I do. Wont be the first nor the last time the engineering department and marketing / communications team at a ski brand wasn't on the same page. In fact I cant think of a single time I have been asked to do a hard goods shoot where all of the sample products where 100% accurate and complete.

    If you think about it, Alpine bindings tend to be very strong in impact scenarios... In fact I cant think of anytime I have seen an alpine heel piece exploded due to impact. Thats because the majority of the forces are transferred directly into the ski. Since the majority of tech bindings I have broken over the years have failed in the heel piece / pedestal it only seems logical to me that a system to transfer those forces into the ski verses heel pedestal isa good idea.

    On another matter I really see ZERO reason to ever run a binding without brakes. If the weight difference makes that much a deal to you, then A. Drink Less beer, B. Get in Shape, or C. harden the F#9K up. The entire industry transitioned away from ski leashes due to the high number of injuries they have caused, and let's face it. I have also lost track of how many weight weenies have lost a ski on top of a peak because it didn't have brakes.
    Last edited by Gunder; 12-17-2018 at 04:15 PM.

  3. #328
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    OOTAH
    Posts
    2,315
    Quote Originally Posted by hafjell View Post
    So you buy the stomp pad theory? Interesting. I wish one was installed on one of the skis. No A-B testing makes it hard to say.
    I do too, why would you want the heel totally unsupported under the boot, it makes sense to limit the amount of stress that is put in the binding upon a hard impact. transferring that into the ski seems like common sense to me. I am in complete agreement with Gunder regarding brakes (the 5 stitches over my eye back in the day confirms the danger of leashes!)

    I have also not heard of any other similar failures besides the OP's, so I am fairly confident that the chances of my Zed exploding are fairly small. Should I have waited for a year before diving into a new binding? Probably, but I will probably not buy another binding for 5 years, and I like the concept and had a long conversation with one of the beta testers who sold me on it.
    If they fail spectacularly I will be the first to admit I screwed up!
    Samuel L. Jackson as Jules Winnfield: Oh, I'm sorry. Did I break your concentration?

  4. #329
    Join Date
    Sep 2016
    Location
    NH
    Posts
    697
    Quote Originally Posted by Gunder View Post
    I do. Wont be the first nor the last time the engineering department and marketing / communications team at a ski brand wasn't on the same page. In fact I cant think of a single time I have been asked to do a hards good shoot where all of the sample products where 100% accurate and complete.

    If you think about it, Alpine bindings tend to be very strong in impact scenarios... In fact I cant think of anytime I have seen an alpine heel piece exploded due to impact. Thats because the majority of the forces are transferred directly into the ski. Since the majority of tech bindings I have broken over the years have failed in the hell piece / torrent it only makes sense to me that system to transfer those forces into the ski verses heel pedestal makes a lot of sense to me.

    On another matter I really see ZERO reason to ever run a binding without brakes. If the weight difference makes that much a deal to you, then A. Drink Less beer, B. Get in Shape, or C. harden the F#9K up. The entire industry transitioned away from ski leashes due to the high number of injuries they have caused, and let's face it. I have also lost track of how many weight weenies have lost a ski on top of a peak because it didn't have brakes.
    Interesting. Brakes and stomp pads ftw, I guess. Thanks for weighing in.

    To play devil's advocate, there are people who drink less beer, are in shape and are tough who are still counting grams, because, if applied to the entire system (clothes, pack, and equipment) it can make a huge difference.

  5. #330
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Mt. Baker
    Posts
    1,326
    Quote Originally Posted by hafjell View Post
    To play devil's advocate, there are people who drink less beer, are in shape and are tough who are still counting grams, because, if applied to the entire system (clothes, pack, and equipment) it can make a huge difference.
    And of everyone of those I know of at least two ski bums that will tour faster, farther and have more fun while beating the weight weeines to the top and chances are they will chug a beer and blow the smoke from they're joint in they're face on the way past....either way my point is people get way to caught up over a few grams that in all reality make ZERO difference at the end of the day.

  6. #331
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Not Brooklyn
    Posts
    5,894
    Meh. I use brakes. And I don't. Sometimes brakes are pretty much useless and leashes offer more security. Other times leashes are a pain or having a loose ski attached to you needs to be avoided.

    Sent from my Pixel using TGR Forums mobile app

  7. #332
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Posts
    10,422
    Quote Originally Posted by teleee View Post
    I do too, why would you want the heel totally unsupported under the boot, it makes sense to limit the amount of stress that is put in the binding upon a hard impact. transferring that into the ski seems like common sense to me. I am in complete agreement with Gunder regarding brakes (the 5 stitches over my eye back in the day confirms the danger of leashes!)
    Me three on both points. For whatever that’s worth.
    I swear on my glass eye,

  8. #333
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    Roadtrippin': to Whistler
    Posts
    1,880
    "Day 1, Run 1" is what made this damage case juicy for me.

    That, plus I get curious whenever big guys choose lightweight plasticky bindings (OP is 6'5" 200, Gunder is 215 + 50 lb pack, etc).

    From the Blister Podcast with G3 ZED Engineering Team, on the topic of ZED vs. Ion:
    “…The Ion is a little bit overbuilt, and for some customers, that’s a really good thing. …So for those users who like to be on really big skis, and ski super-hard in and out of bounds, we’d still recommend the Ion to them. ...Definitely if you’re ever into, like, the 108 plus [width of ski underfoot], you want to think twice about what you have connecting you to your ski, force wise.”
    - Cam Shute (G3 director of product)

    In that podcast, G3 also says the ZED has shorter lifespan than Ion, but also they seem to genuinely believe that ZED can still survive adequately high peak loads.

    Quote Originally Posted by hafjell View Post
    Völkl BMTs. Too light weight for pin tech bindings if I’m 200 lbs?
    I don't know about the weight effect, but I do think carbon construction can have higher transmission of impact energy to the binding etc. Probably not a big factor in this case of damage, but it's another layer on the stack of multiple factors that might add up together.

    .
    Ski Lending Library: Whistler next.

    - TRADE your heavy BILLYGOATS or PROTESTS for my lightweight versions at this thread

    "My biggest goal in life has always been to pursue passion and to make dreams a reality. I love my daughter, but if I had to quit my passions for her, then I would be setting the wrong example for her, and I would not be myself anymore. " -Shane

    "I'm gonna go SO OFF that NO ONE's ever gonna see what I'm gonna do!" -Saucerboy

  9. #334
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Posts
    2,776
    OP, could you offer a little more detail on this half-foot hop to (not quite?) clear a water bar? Did the failure occur in close proximity to that? Did you case the landing a bit, maybe come in with the water bar around about the boot center? Work a bit to get momentum to carry you over it?

    I licked my thumb and held it aloft, but I seem to be short on data, anyway. TIA!

  10. #335
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Posts
    4,617
    I'm guessing it's just that the Zed's aren't waterproof.
    Quote Originally Posted by XXX-er View Post
    the situation strikes me as WAY too much drama at this point

  11. #336
    Join Date
    Sep 2016
    Location
    NH
    Posts
    697
    Quote Originally Posted by Vitamin I View Post
    "Day 1, Run 1" is what made this damage case juicy for me.

    That, plus I get curious whenever big guys choose lightweight plasticky bindings (OP is 6'5" 200, Gunder is 215 + 50 lb pack, etc).

    From the Blister Podcast with G3 ZED Engineering Team, on the topic of ZED vs. Ion:
    “…The Ion is a little bit overbuilt, and for some customers, that’s a really good thing. …So for those users who like to be on really big skis, and ski super-hard in and out of bounds, we’d still recommend the Ion to them. ...Definitely if you’re ever into, like, the 108 plus [width of ski underfoot], you want to think twice about what you have connecting you to your ski, force wise.”
    - Cam Shute (G3 director of product)

    In that podcast, G3 also says the ZED has shorter lifespan than Ion, but also they seem to genuinely believe that ZED can still survive adequately high peak loads.



    I don't know about the weight effect, but I do think carbon construction can have higher transmission of impact energy to the binding etc. Probably not a big factor in this case of damage, but it's another layer on the stack of multiple factors that might add up together.

    .
    Awesome. Thank you.

    Quote Originally Posted by jono View Post
    OP, could you offer a little more detail on this half-foot hop to (not quite?) clear a water bar? Did the failure occur in close proximity to that? Did you case the landing a bit, maybe come in with the water bar around about the boot center? Work a bit to get momentum to carry you over it?
    I've thought about this. But for a number of reasons, I seriously doubt the vertical water bar played any role. If by "casing" you mean to hit the water bar instead of clearing it, no. Landing a bunny hop is a pretty distinct feeling that couldn't be confused with ramming into a bar. When I stopped sliding, my first thought was the DIN was too low and I just released. I told myself on the walk out that they weren't capable of handling a tny landing on pretty flat terrain. Now, after all the engineers have weighed in, I don't know. Lots of folks here, and through PM, and in real life have said "bad batch of plastic. As for working to get momentum, no. It was a pretty fluid fall.

    G3 says they have lots of heavy dudes skiing them faster than 14.5 MPH and landing much biggers airs. I believe them but note that is on last year's pre-production versions. Whether this year's run of plastic holds as well remains to be seen. Since we haven't heard of any other failures, my case seems to be exceptional.

    Interestingly, in conversations with G3, their expectation was the binding should have held together at that speed under any circumstances: running into a wall without the stomp pad. Who knows?

  12. #337
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Rossland BC
    Posts
    1,082
    Quote Originally Posted by Vitamin I View Post
    "Day 1, Run 1" is what made this damage case juicy for me.

    That, plus I get curious whenever big guys choose lightweight plasticky bindings (OP is 6'5" 200, Gunder is 215 + 50 lb pack, etc).

    From the Blister Podcast with G3 ZED Engineering Team, on the topic of ZED vs. Ion:
    “…The Ion is a little bit overbuilt, and for some customers, that’s a really good thing. …So for those users who like to be on really big skis, and ski super-hard in and out of bounds, we’d still recommend the Ion to them. ...Definitely if you’re ever into, like, the 108 plus [width of ski underfoot], you want to think twice about what you have connecting you to your ski, force wise.”
    - Cam Shute (G3 director of product)

    In that podcast, G3 also says the ZED has shorter lifespan than Ion, but also they seem to genuinely believe that ZED can still survive adequately high peak loads.



    I don't know about the weight effect, but I do think carbon construction can have higher transmission of impact energy to the binding etc. Probably not a big factor in this case of damage, but it's another layer on the stack of multiple factors that might add up together.

    .
    I’ve been using Ion LTs for several years now, without issue. I was thinking about changing to Zed’s, assuming similar functionality and durability, to add the convenience of ski brakes while still saving a little weight, and for the longer mounting track (so I could run both my heavy and light touring boots, which have different sole lengths). Am sticking with the Ion LTs for now.

  13. #338
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    gone fishing
    Posts
    2,391
    [QUOTE=hafjell;5533158]
    If by "casing" you mean to hit the water bar instead of clearing it, no..
    [QUOTE]

    reckless toboggan, clean up in aisle 3

  14. #339
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Where the shadows run from themselves
    Posts
    12,023
    I gotta agree with Gunder on the weight weenie stuff. Does getting to the summit 10 seconds faster mean anything at all?

    If you have 50 extra grams you are just gonna get stronger when you tour with that stuff and will make up the time difference eventually anyway. Plus, it's awesome having solid gear on the way down.

    So many weight nerds out there tip toeing down skiing all slow because they are on super tech light gear. What's the point of skinning up if you have to go super slow on the way down cause your shit might explode at any minute? How is that fun?

  15. #340
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Posts
    4,617
    [QUOTE=hafjell;5533158]
    If by "casing" you mean to hit the water bar instead of clearing it, no..
    [QUOTE]

    reckless toboggan, clean up in aisle 3

    Quote Originally Posted by EarlyWood View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by hafjell View Post
    If by "casing" you mean to hit the water bar instead of clearing it, no..
    reckless toboggan, clean up in aisle 3
    There. I cleaned it up for ya.
    Last edited by reckless toboggan; 12-18-2018 at 10:58 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by XXX-er View Post
    the situation strikes me as WAY too much drama at this point

  16. #341
    Join Date
    Jan 2017
    Location
    Lower Mainland
    Posts
    195
    Quote Originally Posted by Whiteroom_Guardian View Post
    I gotta agree with Gunder on the weight weenie stuff. Does getting to the summit 10 seconds faster mean anything at all?

    If you have 50 extra grams you are just gonna get stronger when you tour with that stuff and will make up the time difference eventually anyway. Plus, it's awesome having solid gear on the way down.

    So many weight nerds out there tip toeing down skiing all slow because they are on super tech light gear. What's the point of skinning up if you have to go super slow on the way down cause your shit might explode at any minute? How is that fun?
    I would imagine that a decent percentage of folks buying super-light setups will be climbing with them strapped to their back, in which case that does start to make a difference. For instance, ice climb up a technical route to the summit, and then ski down a less technical route for the descent.

  17. #342
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    gone fishing
    Posts
    2,391
    [QUOTE=reckless toboggan;5533383][QUOTE=hafjell;5533158]
    If by "casing" you mean to hit the water bar instead of clearing it, no..

    reckless toboggan, clean up in aisle 3



    There. I cleaned it up for ya.
    THIS is why you got the PHD

  18. #343
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Posts
    4,617
    Quote Originally Posted by EarlyWood View Post
    THIS is why you got the PHD
    That's only a little bit true.
    Quote Originally Posted by XXX-er View Post
    the situation strikes me as WAY too much drama at this point

  19. #344
    Join Date
    Apr 2019
    Posts
    3

    Interesting thread to jump in on. (sorry for the necro)

    I stumbled on this thread after ordering G3 ZED 12 bindings, but not before using (they actually haven't shipped to me yet) If it turns out there's an issue here I can always exchange them for some ION's or return them, so I don't really have a horse in this race.

    I am a mechanical engineer by training and saw a lot of very perplexing posts by the users in this thread. People who appear to have zero engineering knowledge at all claiming "I don't believe the stomp pad issue" and lots of people saying that this must be a design flaw that G3 was covering up or lying about.

    A few things:


    1. This binding failed on cycle <100 of use. Fatigue is life is measured on a logarithmic scale, meaning 10 -> 100 -> 1,000 -> 10,000 -> 100,000 -> 1,000,000 etc. For the binding to fail in the <100 cycle range (you might even say cycle 1 based on the story) we can instantly rule out fatigue/wear contributing to the failure, even wear potentially generated by the skin up.
    2. The nature of the failure is reproduced in one person, 2 bindings, both at the same time. Obviously this indicates some kind of flaw in these 2 bindings that was present prior to use. I can say conclusively that it had nothing to do with the skiing conditions, the moves made, the speed of skiing, anything like that.
    3. Based on point 2 we can also conclude that IF this were a design flaw (the physical shape and dimensions of the binding) it would be happening to literally every skiier who rode those binding hard. There wouldn't be 1 failure of a set, there would be dozens. As much as the non engineers would love to point and yell "design flaw!!!" while smugly holding their bindings of some other brand, that would be highly incorrect.
    4. This is restating the obvious, but the flaw here is clearly in the material. We can draw that conclusion based on 2 things, lots of people skiing these bindings without this issue, and both bindings breaking in the exact same way.
    5. So what do we do about potentially flawed material causing a catastrophic fracture in a N of 1 situation? we wait and watch. We need to study the other failures that happen and look for a pattern. The manufacturing lot numbers and analysis by G3 will make them more than capable of analyzing the situation accurately. We don't see their internal processes but its likely they have already reproduced and analyzed this failure if they have other bindings in their possession with this material flaw.


    I also want to point out that I think many are totally misconstruing the stomp pad fix that G3 put out in response to this failure. A few more points:


    1. Typically when a single failure occurs, no fix is issued. It's potentially incredibly costly and totally un-necessary. A single failure in un-controlled conditions does not inherently warrant a response.
    2. To G3's Credit, they were able to figure out a solution to greatly mitigate the potential failure by implementing a low weight, low cost, added piece with literally no downsides to regular binding use.
    3. The stomp pad seems to be misunderstood by some posters criticizing it (a lot of you do seem to understand though. The point of the stomp pad isn't to contact the boot or interact during skiing at all. The point of the stomp pad is to limit the displacement of the heel if it were to flex like it did in this failure case. Of course you probably need a flawed/damaged/ worn out binding in the first place to even see this displacement scenario. The point of the stomp pad is to turn a worst-case-scenario where the binding cleaves in half into a worst-case-scenario where it cracks, doesn't break off all the way and severity of the failure is reduced. Keep in mind this failure is highly unlikely to happen in the first place.


    To wrap up this post I want to ask has anyone seen this failure or a failure with their ZED 12 since this incident?

    And no, I don't work for G3 or even in the ski industry, just a fellow enthusiast.

  20. #345
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Posts
    5,884
    I'll just cut to the chase with a quick fuck you! A not so humble engineer...color me totally shocked.

  21. #346
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Posts
    89
    A logical well-reasoned response in a TGR thread? You're in the wrong forum, buddy. Take your 1 post and head for the hills

  22. #347
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    northern BC
    Posts
    17,188
    the point of the stomp pad was to mitigate the possible PR cluster fuck and ensuing drama that would result when some pictures of defective plastic parts on a brand new product got posted 14 pages ago AND the sitution went away SO the fix worked becuz there never was a problem to begin with

    Not an engineer but I did fix all the shit the engineers didn't design properly


    SO there were no more broken heel piece's on the ZED but some folks are complaining that the heel piece moves back when the heel lifters are used, a fix might be coming next year which was i believe a stronger spring to load the heel piece forward
    Lee Lau - xxx-er is the laziest Asian canuck I know

  23. #348
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Posts
    10,422
    It’s all fun and games until the engineers get involved.
    I swear on my glass eye,

  24. #349
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    in the trench
    Posts
    8,002
    Some engines in the rear never learn

    Sent from my SM-G950W using TGR Forums mobile app

  25. #350
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    northern BC
    Posts
    17,188
    I used to work for a civil engineer who claimed " In uni the engineers would sit around drinking beer and giggling while discussing the square root of PI "
    Lee Lau - xxx-er is the laziest Asian canuck I know

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •