Black Diamond Beacons

[toastybroski]

Beaconreviews put up their review and they got five stars and were described as pretty much the same as the old DSP pro. This does make me question how many electronics I have on though and the affect they have on my beacon. I almost always have a gps watch on and my phone in airplane mode in my backpack.

It was also nice to easily be able to change mine to auto-revert using my phone.

[sfotex]

Beaconreviews put up their review and they got five stars and were described as pretty much the same as the old DSP pro.

From Beacon Review:
Review Pending

Although these transceivers were released worldwide in November 2018, they will be in limited supply until March 2019. A full rollout will take place in the Fall of 2019.

I will write a review of these transceivers later, but I expect the Pro/Guide transceivers will be even better than the Pieps DSP Pro. The five-star rating is based on my preliminary testing of the Pro/Guide transceivers.

[dewam]

WARNING:
I did a quick and dirty test. Pieps DSP sending unit, Pieps DSP Pro receiver, and Coast headlamp from Costco.
Range reduced from about 55M down to 15M with my headlight on and within about 20cm. During failure mode I tried moving my headlamp about 60cm away and it did not resolve the range problem, but if I started my search with the headlamp about 30cm away everything worked O.K. The worst thing is that my results were inconsistent. This was a quick and dirty test and will need a lot more time to resolve the inconsistencies.

I had a similar problem with a Garmin Rino radio a couple years back and learned that distance between the beacon and radio solved the problem ALMOST all the time. I will never do a search without turning my radio off. The time to turn it off is worth any wondering if my search is working properly. After today I will not do a search with a headlamp on. Maybe after much more testing I could grow comfortable with a proper distance protocol, but the fact that I could not make the problem go away by moving the headlamp to arms length (while in failure mode) means that I will turn off all electronics when in search mode.

I did not test for any interference in send mode (headlamp close to sending beacon), but with my radio it did not change the results if it was close to the sending beacon (< 10cm.)

[ryan14410]

When a friend of sfotex and I was testing the BD Beacon, he also placed his cell phone on the sending beacon, and he did not observe any interference or change in signal.

When he had his cell phone at arm's length and closer to the receiving beacon, he observed a dramatic change in the distance reading. He said the BD Beacon manual recommends keeping electronics 5m away from the receiving beacon.

Just yesterday, 12/15, I put my BD Beacon on search, and had him start skinning to me. I finally picked up a signal, and the distance reading was 45m, but there was no way in hell he was 45m (148ft) away; he was much closer, about 40-50ft, though we did not actually measure.

He took his beacon out, and played with the orientation. When the sending beacon was vertical, I had a reading of 44m; when it was flat, I had him at 32m.

I have not had the chance to compare a receiving BD Beacon to a receiving DSP Pro.

I am not comfortable with what I've been seeing, which is why I want to compare to a DSP Pro as well; to see if this happens with other beacons.

[sizzle]

I just picked one up, but this has me somewhat concerned.

[Bunion 2020]

Orientation will always be a critical factor with every beacon.

I have never bought into the idea that the units of distance are meters, in my mind I consider them to be units of distance and when learning about a new beacon I do what you were doing and try and establish what that unit of distance equals.

So much of competent beacon use in search mode is about being familiar with your beacon to the point of having a high degree on confidence that you understand the reading it provides.

[toastybroski]

I wonder if the bluetooth chip is having an effect even when turned off.

[sfotex]

From beaconreviews.com

"The reception range of the new transceivers is purportedly improved when the transmitting and receiving antennas are not aligned. The Pieps transceivers have always had exceptional reception range when in perpendicular alignment, so it will be interesting to see how that could be even better."

So they changed something.....

[I've seen black diamonds!]

Orientation will always be a critical factor with every beacon.

I have never bought into the idea that the units of distance are meters, in my mind I consider them to be units of distance and when learning about a new beacon I do what you were doing and try and establish what that unit of distance equals.

So much of competent beacon use in search mode is about being familiar with your beacon to the point of having a high degree on confidence that you understand the reading it provides.

Good post. Beacons don't do straight lines. Backyard practice (in a addition to, not in place of, practice in more "realistic" settings) can help us react more intuitively to the interesting numbers that pop up during searches.

I'm going to play with my beacon (DSP Pro) around a few different electronic devices in different modes after I finish the shitload of work I need to do the next two days. Will report back. Maybe here or maybe in a new thread if the results are particularly interesting.

[dunfree]

there are a number of pieces of work on interference already out there, including a paper that details the effect of cellphones on perceived range (last link, >40cm away was the recommendation)
http://arc.lib.montana.edu/snow-scie...aper_P4.13.pdf
https://beaconreviews.com/interference.php
https://utahavalanchecenter.org/blog/25236
https://www.mtavalanche.com/sites/de...ansceivers.pdf
https://www.mtavalanche.com/sites/de...NOT_Busted.pdf

[I've seen black diamonds!]

there are a number of pieces of work on interference already out there, including a paper that details the effect of cellphones on perceived range (last link, 40cm away was the recommendation)
http://arc.lib.montana.edu/snow-scie...aper_P4.13.pdf
https://beaconreviews.com/interference.php
https://utahavalanchecenter.org/blog/25236
https://www.mtavalanche.com/sites/de...ansceivers.pdf
https://www.mtavalanche.com/sites/de...NOT_Busted.pdf

Yeah, I'm not pretending to be breaking any new ground or extending the field of research. But the interference I experienced a week or so ago seemed to be happening at over that 40cm threshold, and did more than reduce range. It rendered my beacon close to useless.

[dewam]

Yeah, I'm not pretending to be breaking any new ground or extending the field of research. But the interference I experienced a week or so ago seemed to be happening at over that 40cm threshold, and did more than reduce range. It rendered my beacon close to useless.

I agree with black diamonds, it is not about reading the latest research, it is about knowing what YOUR beacon can do and having faith in it during a search. For me that has come down to learning to turn off all electronic devices in order to trust my beacon. I keep my radio on while skiing as it has become an awesome tool in the back country, but I do practice turning it off for beacon search. Practice, Practice.

Bunion/not bunion put it clearly:
"So much of competent beacon use in search mode is about being familiar with your beacon to the point of having a high degree of confidence that you understand the reading it provides."

[Foggy_Goggles]

You guys are totally on point. Looks like I will be getting another PIEPS. I need to be confident.

[sfotex]

Got what I need do some testing. Will report back.

[dunfree]

do you have a non-BD/pieps beacon to throw in? curious the differences in how beacons cope with interference.

dewam - those links stretch back years, they aren't the latest research. way back in the analog dark ages you could audibly hear interference from other sources; in the digital era the question is how the beacon deals with interference. there's other shit they mention - like signal attenuation from foil, metal, etc. which effects the signal of all beacons that might be useful (or not).

[sfotex]

do you have a non-BD/pieps beacon to throw in? curious the differences in how beacons cope with interference.

I'll throw my Mammut Pulse into the mix tonight.

I played around this afternoon in a huge field / no electronics and it looks like the range is reduced by 10+m when the transmitting beacon is a BD beacon. When the transmitting beacon was an old Pieps the range was 60 best/30 worst, when it was a new BD unit it dropped to 35/21 meters. (actual distances)... Both the BD and Pieps yielded similar results when searching for the BD unit. I'm going to try a different location tonight.

[toastybroski]

Damn, very concerning. My guide BT is all I have been using.

Those studies about interference are interesting. It seems GPS and ipods/cellphones have the biggest impact. I carry my beacon on my left hand side in a chest rig which is pretty close to my left hand that is wearing a GPS watch.

[jono]

It's not about where you carry it.

Testing for interference with your own specific electronics does have the advantage of requiring that people actually try things out. Once, anyway.

[sfotex]

Got out and did a few (hundred) tests today.





Sooo the Pieps and BD beacons in search mode cause interference with other beacons in search mode within a 2 meter range.
More testing to be done...

Otherwise they worked as they should..

[El Chupacabra]

Did you observe whether other brand beacons also caused interference with each other? Or was it just the Pieps and BD ones?

[Meadow Skipper]

Got out and did a few (hundred) tests today.





Sooo the Pieps and BD beacons in search mode cause interference with other beacons in search mode within a 2 meter range.
More testing to be done...

Strong work so far.

[sfotex]

Did you observe whether other brand beacons also caused interference with each other? Or was it just the Pieps and BD ones?

Just seems to be Pieps\BD.
I was helping Steve at BeaconReviews with some testing for the site and have been talking to him about my BD issues. He has seen issues with the LEDs in the trackers causing issues at close range (under 6 inches), but this was the first time he had seen this. To be fair, in a real rescue it shouldn't cause an issue, but its something to be aware of in training, etc.

[El Chupacabra]

Thanks. I would've thought they would have tested for interference and designed around it (shielding?), but seems like Pieps didn't.

[dewam]

Got out and did a few (hundred) tests today.

My thanks to you and the rest of the crew. I'll be watching Steve's site for new info.
Did you do any test for interference to the sending beacon?
I.E. radio/electronics too close to the beacon when buried. Den

[sfotex]

My thanks to you and the rest of the crew. I'll be watching Steve's site for new info.
Did you do any test for interference to the sending beacon?
I.E. radio/electronics too close to the beacon when buried. Den

Steve has a long range receiver he uses to 'listen' for inference when we set the tests up. When we were doing the tests we didn't have any electronics other then the beacons in the area.