Quiver extension -> school me on bindings / inserts

**LeoK** · 10-23-2018, 03:01 AM

Dear Mags,

the last two years I was lucky enough to almost manage with powder skis only. Therefore my quiver now consist of

DPS L120 Pures with IONs
DPS Spoon with King Pins (3rd Mount at -1)
old Movement Logic X (pre rocker) with Dynafits

This / the next season however I am expanding.

I already got an old DPS RPC Hybrid 186cm (in the mail right now - but I will do the 4th mount on them)
I am planing to get some allmountain ski probably a Black Crows Daemon (for days at the resort, kind of what you might call a daily driver).
In distant future I'd like to get some touring ski, that is slightly heavier than the Logic X but skis better (thinking Kästle, BC Solis...) and maybe even some real carver for exclusive groomer use.

So now I am stuck with the questions how to proceed with Bindings.

- Do I want King Pins/ Shifts for the RPC or Pivots? Did anybody skin with those? I'd like to use them to skin in / out of resorts to get freshies a few days after a refresh of powder but no big hikes.

- Do I want inserts to switch between RCP / Deamon (carving ski) and maybe save money in the long run? If so - how about changing stoppers for different width? Is that easy?

- Should I pull King Pins from the Spoons to use them on more skis? Could I put inserts in the already existing holes?

- Do I want Ions or ATKs on the RPC and get Pivots for the Daemon and and switch those with a future carving ski? How about stoppers?

- Any Ideas on how to avoid hole-conflicts in the RPC?

- Does this make any senes to anybody?

Sidenotes: I am skiing Z-values around 8. I have Lange Freetours 130 and a pair of light touring boots.

Thanks for your input!

Edit: Anybody wants to sell some bindings I might find useful and ship to europe?

**smooth operator** · 10-23-2018, 03:22 AM

two years ago was not a great powder year in Switzerland. Last year however....

It looks like you have your tech bindings covered, so I'd go with an alpine binding (or shift if you want to have touring capability). Having switched from dynafit beasts to STH + CAST last year for my 'freeride' ski, i cannot understate how much better an alpine binding skis. And the beast was not bad to begin with. I feel a lot more confident and in control going fast in shitty snow.

Inserts: I've never used them but it seems a hassle to switch regularly.

**LeoK** · 10-23-2018, 03:35 AM

Originally Posted by smooth operator

two years ago was not a great powder year in Switzerland. Last year however....

I was skiing in Canada, too

Originally Posted by smooth operator

It looks like you have your tech bindings covered, so I'd go with an alpine binding (or shift if you want to have touring capability). Having switched from dynafit beasts to STH + CAST last year for my 'freeride' ski, i cannot understate how much better an alpine binding skis. And the beast was not bad to begin with. I feel a lot more confident and in control going fast in shitty snow.

Talking about the RPC I guess?

Originally Posted by smooth operator

Inserts: I've never used them but it seems a hassle to switch regularly.

I feel like I would only do this in a dry, warm place at home and could decide the day before what skis I want to bring.

**GPP33** · 10-23-2018, 07:01 AM

I have inserts in all my skis to handle alpine/AT/tele. Takes a few minutes to swap bindings or skis. Can be done out in the cold or inside. If you can turn a screwdriver you too can change bindings.

Get a few extra screws though otherwise loosing one would suck.

**Mofro261** · 10-23-2018, 08:10 AM

Heh, I just noticed I have different bindings on every pair I use.

**LeoK** · 10-23-2018, 10:16 AM

I am not so sure about the old DPS color scheme - any recommendations on what to put on those RPCs?

**Mofro261** · 10-23-2018, 10:35 AM

Originally Posted by LeoK

I am not so sure about the old DPS color scheme - any recommendations on what to put on those RPCs?

4th mount??? Whatever doesn't have hole conflicts, and the only way to know is to know what the other 3 mounts were for, at what BSL, and what your current BSL is.

**XXX-er** · 10-23-2018, 11:23 AM

I would forget about the inserts and just find some slightly used alpine skis that already have bindings

**Simsibimsi** · 10-23-2018, 03:04 PM

Also Jumping in on this..

People who use Inserts - Is there any structural integrity issue when regularly swapping out bindings? And is it really as easy as undoing and fastening a few bolts? Or is there more (gluing, sealing ) involved?

**Norseman** · 10-23-2018, 03:16 PM

Inserts are epoxied into the ski and the threads are closed, so they seal out water very well.

The screws used with inserts are stainless machine screws with a fine thread pitch. No issue with repeated use, until the head strips... careful with ball-end hex keys. Stainless is soft relative to steel.

Some folks advise using a threadlocker to prevent loosening by vibration... those are the same folks who end up accidentally unthreading the insert from the ski when the loctite is too strong or the epoxy isn't right.

I learned that lesson and ran them dry for years. Had one screw stick due to galling. Must re-tighten daily when used dry.

Inserts are best for exposed, easily accessed fasteners (pivots, etc). Sucks to adjust a heel fore/aft to access.

I've done my time with inserts. Not worth the hassle, except with tight budget.

**GPP33** · 10-23-2018, 09:01 PM

Originally Posted by Simsibimsi

Also Jumping in on this..

People who use Inserts - Is there any structural integrity issue when regularly swapping out bindings? And is it really as easy as undoing and fastening a few bolts? Or is there more (gluing, sealing ) involved?

As Norseman said, you use stainless machine screws. They make for a stronger mount than a traditional mount provided you do it right (no data to back that up, just basic logic). I never use locktight and have never lost a screw. I switch out a few times a year, other than those times I don’t bother rethighting. You can tighten em up nice and snug since your threads are metal to metal, if you go with traditional ski torque values you’ll fight loosening screws. So to directly answer your questions; no, yes and no.

**doebedoe** · 10-23-2018, 09:35 PM

No threadlocker. But vibratite or the old cyclist's trick of some beeswax on threads works well.

**LeoK** · 10-23-2018, 11:55 PM

Originally Posted by Mofro261

4th mount??? Whatever doesn't have hole conflicts, and the only way to know is to know what the other 3 mounts were for, at what BSL, and what your current BSL is.

unfortunately yes - the guy who sold them had Barons on them and as I really dislike those I asked for ski only. Than he pulled the Barons (size S) and discovered they where not the 2nd but the 3rd mount as he was misinformed by the previous owner. I guess I will have to measure all the holes - create some "mount pattern" for what is there and go try to overlay all kinds mounts digitally before ordering a binding.

Any thought on reusing some old holes - like from the first mount, already sealed since a winter or something?

**smooth operator** · 10-24-2018, 03:09 AM

Originally Posted by LeoK

Any thought on reusing some old holes - like from the first mount, already sealed since a winter or something?

pul the plug carefully and you should be fine. If the screw spins you can always helicoil.

**Toddball** · 10-24-2018, 09:59 AM

If you don't mind the added stack height, and you are planning on using an older binding, Sollyfit/Dynalook/etc plates will almost certainly solve your Swiss-cheese problems. Won't work with Kingpins or Shifts though.

**Core Shot** · 10-24-2018, 10:50 AM

Originally Posted by smooth operator

pul the plug carefully and you should be fine. If the screw spins you can always helicoil.

Or an insert if it spins

I have reused holes several times with no issues. Just try to catch the old threads. And use thin epoxy to help soak into the wood core.

Kingpins with inserts on the dps rpc makes sense. Pull them off your spoon.
Spoon is a magic day ski, so fiddling with screws the night before is part of the fun.

Inserts are easy but don't expect to want to change all the time. Rarely used skis do better.

I rarely Tele. But can swap a Tele binding if needed.

Inserts are also great for travel. Lightens the ski bag when bringing multiple pairs.

**LeoK** · 10-25-2018, 02:05 AM

Originally Posted by Toddball

If you don't mind the added stack height, and you are planning on using an older binding, Sollyfit/Dynalook/etc plates will almost certainly solve your Swiss-cheese problems. Won't work with Kingpins or Shifts though.

I really hope to avoid stack height but this sounds like a good backup plan. Thanks.

**LeoK** · 10-25-2018, 02:07 AM

Originally Posted by Core Shot

Or an insert if it spins

I have reused holes several times with no issues. Just try to catch the old threads. And use thin epoxy to help soak into the wood core.

Kingpins with inserts on the dps rpc makes sense. Pull them off your spoon.
Spoon is a magic day ski, so fiddling with screws the night before is part of the fun.

Inserts are easy but don't expect to want to change all the time. Rarely used skis do better.

I rarely Tele. But can swap a Tele binding if needed.

Inserts are also great for travel. Lightens the ski bag when bringing multiple pairs.

This makes perfekt sense (at least budget wise). I will try to make them fit between existing mounts. Do I have to expect any trouble with the spoon when putting inserts in the existing holes (already at the 3rd mount at -1, too)? The last thing I want to do is fuck up the spoon as they are so f*cking hard to get.

**XXX-er** · 10-31-2018, 04:25 PM

Originally Posted by Core Shot

I have reused holes several times with no issues. Just try to catch the old threads. And use thin epoxy to help soak into the wood core.

If I am re-using a hole in a ski what I do is turn a screw slowly BACKWARDS in the hole by hand using just a PZ3 driver bit

I use just the bit so I can feel the screw drop into the threads as it goes around so I know where the thread starts then I turn clockwise and I have always hit the threads without fucking them up

Snug down the screw with some epoxy and don't overtighten

**Core Shot** · 10-31-2018, 09:03 PM

Originally Posted by LeoK

This makes perfekt sense (at least budget wise). I will try to make them fit between existing mounts. Do I have to expect any trouble with the spoon when putting inserts in the existing holes (already at the 3rd mount at -1, too)? The last thing I want to do is fuck up the spoon as they are so f*cking hard to get.

If you put an insert in an old screw hole, the hole is bigger. You Drill again and tap before inserting.

But really, epoxy is amazing. Your skis are made with it. Strong stuff

**sruffian** · 10-31-2018, 09:23 PM

Good discussion here, but I think OP is going down the rabbit hole on inserts/plates rather than looking at the quiver -

You have spoons w/ kingpins and l120's w/ IONs. In what situation would you want to tour on the RPC's over those skis or a skinny touring ski?? I'd say just mount the RPC's w/ alpine binders and tour on the dedicated touring quiver

You could also just mount RPC's w/ shift. Expensive, first year, but they're a hit so far...

If you're mounting alpine, NO you do NOT want inserts to move from RPC's to a skinnier alpine ski. You're talking about skiing at an 8 DIN - buy 2 pairs of $100 10-din binders. IIRC, when I originally did inserts, it was about $100 to get the tools, inserts for two skis, and screws. Just buy two pairs of binders. Used if you need 13+ din, new if you ski at 8

Plates or inserts will overcome the hole conflict issue, though. A couple tests have swiss-cheesed inserts w/ existing holes and held fast.

You're way over thinking this

**LeoK** · 11-01-2018, 02:21 AM