Positional probing

[Meadow Skipper]

This is basically what happened at Sheep Creek with the deepest victim. When we (Loveland Ski Patrol) arrived we had 12' steel probe poles. All we could do was pinpoint on the victim and start digging because the probe was too short to touch the victim. Once we had dug down about 10' we could probe. That's when we touched the victim. This victim was buried approx 14' - 16'.

That had to be rough on the rescue crew.

[Hacksaw]

That had to be rough on the rescue crew.

It was....

[sfotex]

Here is the draft text of the recommendation:

Draft Recommendation Proposal on Position Probing

Rationale:
Position Probing allows to quickly gain information about the approximate orientation of the buried
subject in order to define an optimal excavation strategy and gain head access more rapidly.
The application of position probing is recommended in cases where more information about the
position of the buried subject has the potential to minimize head access time.
While position probing is performed, the remaining rescuers already start excavation with a certain
distance to the expected burial area.
Apply a spiral probing technique, each probe hit immediately becomes the center of the next probing
spiral. Leave every probe with a probe strike in place and use an additional probe to proceed.
Continue until the outline of the buried subject is evident and adapt the further excavation effort
accordingly.

[Meadow Skipper]

Position Probing allows to quickly gain information about the approximate orientation of the buried subject in order to define an optimal excavation strategy and gain head access more rapidly.

Wait...where’s the data on this?

[galibier_numero_un]

Intended for a party of 4 or larger with one burial?

I'd love to see the logic of this as compared to conveyor belt shoveling, especially from folks a whole lot more experienced than me.

... Thom

[sfotex]

Intended for a party of 4 or larger with one burial?

I'd love to see the logic of this as compared to conveyor belt shoveling, especially from folks a whole lot more experienced than me.

... Thom

These are recommendations for professional rescue groups...

[galibier_numero_un]

These are recommendations for professional rescue groups...

Thanks. I thought that was the emphasis but wasn't sure if it was being generalized beyond that.

... Thom

[nickinbc]

Apply a spiral probing technique, each probe hit immediately becomes the center of the next probing
spiral. Leave every probe with a probe strike in place and use an additional probe to proceed.
Continue until the outline of the buried subject is evident and adapt the further excavation effort
accordingly.

How many probes do they estimate (or better yet have found from experiment) it will take to make the outline of the buried subject 'evident'?

[nickel]

How many probes do they estimate (or better yet have found from experiment) it will take to make the outline of the buried subject 'evident'?

this seems like it would be a big number to me...

[sfotex]

go to 14:30 for a detailed description

[Meadow Skipper]

From the video:

...based on a very special case scenario..."

...you have to very many rescuers on the field. It's not supposed to be used within this window of opportunity where you're fighting time against asphyxia time, so it is beyond 35 minutes of burial time...

Thanks, that explained it well.

[Bunion 2020]

OK, but in my opinion all this adds is one more complexity to a very stressful situation.

I am sure that in one out of 10 or 100 or 1000 scenarios this would be of value but if I am ever buried, please just dig me the hell up.

[reckless toboggan]

OK, but in my opinion all this adds is one more complexity to a very stressful situation.

I am sure that in one out of 10 or 100 or 1000 scenarios this would be of value but if I am ever buried, please just dig me the hell up.

^^^ this. I can't believe we're even having a discussion about directional probing.

[summit]

That video helped clarify it. From an organized rescue perspective, I still say this seems like it would be rarely used and offer little gain. I continue to worry about rescuers crushing the victims airspace.

[sfotex]

OK, but in my opinion all this adds is one more complexity to a very stressful situation.

I am sure that in one out of 10 or 100 or 1000 scenarios this would be of value but if I am ever buried, please just dig me the hell up.

That's the rub for me with some of these recommendations. When they DOT first launched the EMT program they discovered that EMT's were delaying transporting critical patients so they could do a complete patient assessment vs. load n' go. I worry that giving people more shit to think can delay the digging, etc.