NE Roll Call 18/19

[jhyatt]

Bob Kraft buys uphill tickets?

It’s like paying for sex right?



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[FussyDutchman]

The only time I’ve been asked to show a pass was probably 15 years ago when renting Bryant Camp.

If I was to pay $129 to skin, I’d request access to Vista beyond the 3 single lift rides. I understand the reason to charge, I’d be fairly pissed if I was just a nordic skier and saw another user group using trails for free while I had to pay. That being said, I’ve never paid to ski uphill and have no future plans to do so.

Agreed, it should be substantially more than 3 (10 seems reasonable) and as much as I like going there for a late afternoon skin pre-sunset, no way I'm paying $129 for it. I guess we'll see if they actually enforce the policy. My guess is maybe initially they try but the extra staffing to do so will likely cost more than it's worth in the long run and things revert back to the norm after a while. Maybe it has changed in the last few years but I can't think of another resort that has as limited a patrol presence on the hill at any given time.

[anotherVTskibum]

Agreed, it should be substantially more than 3 (10 seems reasonable) and as much as I like going there for a late afternoon skin pre-sunset, no way I'm paying $129 for it. I guess we'll see if they actually enforce the policy. My guess is maybe initially they try but the extra staffing to do so will likely cost more than it's worth in the long run and things revert back to the norm after a while. Maybe it has changed in the last few years but I can't think of another resort that has as limited a patrol presence on the hill at any given time.

If you get out 10 times over the course of a season (twice a month if you count Nov - March), thats $13 per visit, or not far from one movie ticket (depending on the theater). That's without considering any value out of the one-ride tickets, and I think it's less than it would cost you to park in Burlington that many times.

Plus, the additional cost is $0 if you already have a pass. IMO, that's a pretty reasonable ask overall, even if the $129 is a relatively big commitment up front.

I seriously doubt there will be any active enforcement of the policy (i'd expect it to be more of a "well, we'll hang out down there once or twice to ask nicely, and we'll ask our employees who happen to be down there to keep an eye out"), but paying for it provides a positive feedback loop in supporting the local uphill scene. While I don't think the current regime is likely to ban uphill travel (or otherwise get overly restrictive of it), having that revenue on the books helps make a good case in the future that the after-hours, unpatrolled access is something that locals appreciate and take advantage of. It might also make it a little easier for someone to nudge the ops guys to make an extra pass down at Timberline in the spring to smooth out the suncups, or at least to drop the tiller when doing end-of-season cleanup trips.

[BC_ski_BC]

My 2 cents from being somewhat of a regular, early morning uphiller at BV, on weekdays is that it is a shitshow of privileged assholes who leave their cars in the middle of the parking lot during big storms, uphill with their dogs that are not in control, and are rude to mountain ops/patrollers. It is a privilege, not a right to skin up a trail that is owned and maintained by BV, and a $120 donation is chump change if you go there on the regular. I agree BV is a shitshow itself, always hoping things will improve and have no idea if their enforcement will work, but many places have shut this same situation down because it is not worth it. Welcome to 2019 folks, ski mountains are in the business of making money...except Cochrans of course!

[Peruvian]

...I’d be fairly pissed if I was just a nordic skier and saw another user group using trails for free while I had to pay.

I think this sums it up quite well.

[Boreas]

Skied smooth today.

[Boreas]

My 2 cents from being somewhat of a regular, early morning uphiller at BV, on weekdays is that it is a shitshow of privileged assholes who leave their cars in the middle of the parking lot during big storms, uphill with their dogs that are not in control, and are rude to mountain ops/patrollers. It is a privilege, not a right to skin up a trail that is owned and maintained by BV, and a $120 donation is chump change if you go there on the regular. I agree BV is a shitshow itself, always hoping things will improve and have no idea if their enforcement will work, but many places have shut this same situation down because it is not worth it. Welcome to 2019 folks, ski mountains are in the business of making money...except Cochrans of course!

Bolton’s been a shitshow for a long time. When I lived in Burlington we had a game that involved drinking heavily, ski or hike to Vista, ski/ sled down, make it to last call in Burlington. We didn’t have many rules,but the main rule was you had to be drinking during Duff hour to lead the call, and the race couldn’t start until 10.

[Peruvian]

First after work/Daylight Savings tour of the spring this evening. Followed our skin track for about 800’ of vert.

Saw some of yesterday’s tracks.



Fishscaled skis made for a quick transition.





I came across a group from the Burr and Burton Academy Mountain Campus. They were camping out on their multi night snowshoeing trip where they follow a watershed from campus to the source. It’s a burly effort.

[retirwntm]

Split boarding in the dacks=a sure way to hasten the transition to skiing....


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Truth. I still remember being about 1/2 mile from the loj with a 3 day pack and eating it coming up hill on a glide and being in turtle pose for about 20 minutes. It was 3 am and I suddenly understood why single lonely people die in NYC don’t get found in their apartments for days (weeks).


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[Goniff]

First after work/Daylight Savings tour of the spring this evening.

Great Daylight Savings stoke!

[FussyDutchman]

If you get out 10 times over the course of a season (twice a month if you count Nov - March), thats $13 per visit, or not far from one movie ticket (depending on the theater). That's without considering any value out of the one-ride tickets, and I think it's less than it would cost you to park in Burlington that many times.

Plus, the additional cost is $0 if you already have a pass. IMO, that's a pretty reasonable ask overall, even if the $129 is a relatively big commitment up front.

I seriously doubt there will be any active enforcement of the policy (i'd expect it to be more of a "well, we'll hang out down there once or twice to ask nicely, and we'll ask our employees who happen to be down there to keep an eye out"), but paying for it provides a positive feedback loop in supporting the local uphill scene. While I don't think the current regime is likely to ban uphill travel (or otherwise get overly restrictive of it), having that revenue on the books helps make a good case in the future that the after-hours, unpatrolled access is something that locals appreciate and take advantage of. It might also make it a little easier for someone to nudge the ops guys to make an extra pass down at Timberline in the spring to smooth out the suncups, or at least to drop the tiller when doing end-of-season cleanup trips.

For me it really isn't the $ issue, I just dislike the idea of them charging for use of public land which as Ayo mentioned, they have no part in maintaining. As I said, if you want to skin Tline or Wilderness I have no issue with them looking for a fee and same for the groomed nordic trails which they maintain even though I believe (someone please correct me if I am off base) they are on land owned by the Trust not the DesLauries family.

BC, I rarely have gone in the morning and don't doubt that there are a handful of thoughtless nozzles who treat it as their own private hill but I think you would agree most of the uphillers are respectful and appreciative of the resorts laid back policy. Maybe I am off base but this seems to me to be a case of trying to use what is a limited issue as an excuse to generate additional revenue. They are running a business in a very competitive space from a disadvantaged position which I understand but portions of the new policy go too far imo. BTW, I got a good laugh from your Cochran's comment...not sure how they do it but the 2 family members that I know on a casually basis are true salt of the earth people who seem to just enjoy sharing their love of snowsports with any and all.

Good stuff WDG, Boreas and G, as usual you guys (among others) consistently keep things on track!

[Generalstark]

For me it really isn't the $ issue, I just dislike the idea of them charging for use of public land which as Ayo mentioned, they have no part in maintaining. As I said, if you want to skin Tline or Wilderness I have no issue with them looking for a fee and same for the groomed nordic trails which they maintain even though I believe (someone please correct me if I am off base) they are on land owned by the Trust not the DesLauries family.
!

I think there are multiple discussions going on here or I am missing something. I assume the change in policy is related to uphilling on the downhill area trails. Uphilling on the Nordic and/or bc trails has been subject to a fee for the 20+ years I have been skiing there. Whether or not one chooses to pay the fee is up to ones discretion.

Since wilderness has essentially closed that has become the uphill zone as far as I know. Is there some other uphill area non-Nordic/bc that I’m not aware of? There has always been a clear delineation in terms of what is the downhill area and what is the Nordic/bc area in my experience.

If your beef is with the fact that most of the bc is public land now so you shouldn’t have to pay to access, then don’t pay. There are also plenty of other ways to access it...but BV clearly maintains an access and the overhead associated so a fee is perfectly reasonable.

The new policy seems to do nothing more than clarify that uphilling on the downhill trails (privately maintained) requires a fee. Once again, whether on not one chooses to pay is up to them. But it’s certainly reasonable to ask and I would think that anyone enjoying the service could understand why they should pay.






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[AyoBeng]

I think there are multiple discussions going on here or I am missing something. I assume the change in policy is related to uphilling on the downhill area trails. Uphilling on the Nordic and/or bc trails has been subject to a fee for the 20+ years I have been skiing there. Whether or not one chooses to pay the fee is up to ones discretion.

Since wilderness has essentially closed that has become the uphill zone as far as I know. Is there some other uphill area non-Nordic/bc that I’m not aware of? There has always been a clear delineation in terms of what is the downhill area and what is the Nordic/bc area in my experience.

If your beef is with the fact that most of the bc is public land now so you shouldn’t have to pay to access, then don’t pay. There are also plenty of other ways to access it...but BV clearly maintains an access and the overhead associated so a fee is perfectly reasonable.

The new policy seems to do nothing more than clarify that uphilling on the downhill trails (privately maintained) requires a fee. Once again, whether on not one chooses to pay is up to them. But it’s certainly reasonable to ask and I would think that anyone enjoying the service could understand why they should pay.

Yes, as I said when I first heard the news I was feeling bitter and the Bolton BC comment was not really relevant to the discussion of the new uphill policy. Since then I have come to terms with the change. I’m still probably not going to pay it but will instead volunteer enough days with Friends of BV in the fall to get the pass for free (either 3 or 5 days usually, I can’t recall now).

[jhyatt]

I have always been curious about fish scaled Skis. Noticeable on the downhill? Is there anyway to put scales on an old pair of skis?
How steep up can you go? Compared with skins? Step enough that you would use heel risers?

First after work/Daylight Savings tour of the spring this evening. Followed our skin track for about 800’ of vert.

Saw some of yesterday’s tracks.



Fishscaled skis made for a quick transition.

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[AyoBeng]

There are waste-deep drifts to be found out there this morning. Get some!

[Boreas]

There are waste-deep drifts to be found out there this morning. Get some!

Sweet

[Peruvian]

I have always been curious about fish scaled Skis. Noticeable on the downhill? Is there anyway to put scales on an old pair of skis?
How steep up can you go? Compared with skins? Step enough that you would use heel risers?

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Climbing with scales scales is very dependent on the snow of the day. Yesterday I was following our uptrack that had blown in pow on top. If I stepped into the unconsolidated pow, it was more difficult. I was using heel risers yesterday. I had skins in my pack, just in case.

Neither my regular ski partner nor I, notice them on the way down except on groomed snow or a sno-mo track.

I mostly use them for access. Several zones I ski, I end up just below the car (think of Goshen Mtn at Brandon Gap). Instead of either trying to herringbone or post hole out, I can use the scales to ski up and out. Here is a FS road I ski out which they are perfect for. Not very steep but just enough rise to be incredibly frustrating to exit without scales.



Oh and sweet pics, Ayo!

[jhyatt]

Climbing with scales scales is very dependent on the snow of the day. Yesterday I was following our uptrack that had blown in pow on top. If I stepped into the unconsolidated pow, it was more difficult. I was using heel risers yesterday. I had skins in my pack, just in case.

Neither my regular ski partner nor I, notice them on the way down except on groomed snow or a sno-mo track.

I mostly use them for access. Several zones I ski, I end up just below the car (think of Goshen Mtn at Brandon Gap). Instead of either trying to herringbone or post hole out, I can use the scales to ski up and out. Here is a FS road I ski out which they are perfect for. Not very steep but just enough rise to be incredibly frustrating to exit without scales.



Oh and sweet pics, Ayo!

Thanks. Have you ever used xc kick wax underfoot on a non scaled ski? And if so how does it compare? Thinking about trying that for a long approach. Then scraping it off.

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[HankScorpio]

Nice little sleeper ski day today. Crazy light snow here. Go get it if you can.

Nice work Ayo!

[Peruvian]

Thanks. Have you ever used xc kick wax underfoot on a non scaled ski? And if so how does it compare? Thinking about trying that for a long approach. Then scraping it off.

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I’ve had a few issues using kick wax. The first is the amount required on fat skis. It takes a lot of cover to get any decent kick. Next, since your skins don’t have a proper wax pocket (like a double cambered XC ski does) it wears off quickly. That may not be a bad thing, but be aware. Finally, you may want to put your skins on during your tour and the kick wax and your skin glue won’t like one another much.

I believe robrox also has experience using kick wax on alpine skis so maybe he will chime in.

[BC_ski_BC]

For me it really isn't the $ issue, I just dislike the idea of them charging for use of public land which as Ayo mentioned, they have no part in maintaining. As I said, if you want to skin Tline or Wilderness I have no issue with them looking for a fee and same for the groomed nordic trails which they maintain even though I believe (someone please correct me if I am off base) they are on land owned by the Trust not the DesLauries family.

BC, I rarely have gone in the morning and don't doubt that there are a handful of thoughtless nozzles who treat it as their own private hill but I think you would agree most of the uphillers are respectful and appreciative of the resorts laid back policy. Maybe I am off base but this seems to me to be a case of trying to use what is a limited issue as an excuse to generate additional revenue. They are running a business in a very competitive space from a disadvantaged position which I understand but portions of the new policy go too far imo. BTW, I got a good laugh from your Cochran's comment...not sure how they do it but the 2 family members that I know on a casually basis are true salt of the earth people who seem to just enjoy sharing their love of snowsports with any and all.

Good stuff WDG, Boreas and G, as usual you guys (among others) consistently keep things on track!

Not to beat this to death and I hope others are skiing... I agree, don't charge for public land-my comments are directed towards skinning and skiing the mountain. Yes, most uphillers I go with or bump into are very very respectful, but as the sport has become more popular the amount of clueless disrespectful has increased, and it only takes a few to ruin it. It's just common respect that maybe is just lacking from a percentage of the population, there are assholes everywhere!

Cochran's is my favorite and I hope all the best for BV, they are trying to survive in a tough climate.

[Peruvian]

I’m still probably not going to pay it but will instead volunteer enough days with Friends of BV in the fall to get the pass for free (either 3 or 5 days usually, I can’t recall now).

So I searched for Friends of Bolton Valley and came up with a dead link - http://www.boltonfriends.org/

I then checks FB and couldn't find a page for FBV. Can you provide any insight into where more info can be found, how to volunteer, etc.?

[AyoBeng]

So I searched for Friends of Bolton Valley and came up with a dead link - http://www.boltonfriends.org/

I then checks FB and couldn't find a page for FBV. Can you provide any insight into where more info can be found, how to volunteer, etc.?

The link must have only gone dead recently, I have an email from them from March 4th. When the website is back you can sign up for the mailing list, or possibly try emailing boltonfriends@gmail.com and let them know you’re interested. Trail work is scheduled for early to late fall over a number of weekends with both Saturdays and Sundays scheduled, also an occasional weekday. Usually clearing blowdowns, lopping high branches that have grown in, reopening drainages, etc. I’m new to the group but most of the people who show have been around for a while and are super dedicated, some were involved with some of the original trail building. The group is a good size and plenty of people show but I think they’re struggling to get new volunteers so new faces are always welcome.

[Generalstark]

Thanks. Have you ever used xc kick wax underfoot on a non scaled ski? And if so how does it compare? Thinking about trying that for a long approach. Then scraping it off.

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I have used wax pretty extensively on nordic (cambered), bc (half-cambered) and downhill (no-camber). It works on all but the less camber the ski has the less kick you will get and as Peruvian reports, the wax does not stay as long (assuming you are using the correct temp. wax). Wax performance depends on your application and your nordic skills....

This is why scaled skis were invented, so as to reduce the need for skills. IMO they're a great option and I have used scaled fat skis tele on all sorts of terrain from slides in the dacks to the wildcat trail. They're awesome for pasture skiing...

There's compromises with everything and a scaled ski does not ski the same IMO, will not climb like with skins, especially in pow (though you can use skins with them), and a downhill ski will not kick and glide nearly as well as a nordic ski.

Nordic technology, for a waxless base, is moving to small pieces of mohair skin embedded in the base and this will be the way with fat waxless. Altai is already making a fat waxless bc ski with an embedded skin and I suspect others may follow suit. I have been considering trying it with an old pair of skis.

Regardless, waxing your skis is def worth a try as long as it is an extra-green or extra-blue day with cold snow. Spring snow is not worth it...

And kicker skins are another option as well...

[Generalstark]

The group is a good size and plenty of people show but I think they’re struggling to get new volunteers so new faces are always welcome.

Yep. With most things in VT the old guard is getting old and replacing them with fresh blood is a challenge. It is an awesome group of folks that are very dedicated to that land. It probably wouldn't have been conserved without them (another discussion).

Helping them out with what they do is certainly a good way to get some skin in the game and feel better about skiing there for free (though some clearly lose no sleep over it). I can just about guarantee that every member of that group buys a pass to BV to support their efforts in providing access and because they want them to succeed.