Leg extensions. Worth it or worthless

[Self Jupiter]

Not all of us are lucky enough to be able to ski all the time. Personally, I miss 5-8 weeks a year during the season due to my back/spinal condition. Working out more strategically and efficiently has brought that number down. Working to eliminate the down time entirely. Appreciate this thread.

[skizix]

Didn't read the whole thing, so sorry if repeating, but: squats are the only weightroom leg workout you ever really need (yeah, know that has been said a bunch). Lunges are worthwhile as well, for sure. BUT, if you have a bad back, like me (exploded disc some years ago - mostly fine these days, but squats w/ big weight are contraindicated), just do leg press instead (you will miss getting the lower back workout of squats, but there are other ways to do that). Be sure and do your reps slowly (especially the return).

Biking (like you mean it!) and running are also great ski conditioning, as are explosive jumps (squat position with no weight, jump onto a bench etc, jump off, repeat until you don't make it and wipe out )

Leg extensions: yes, mostly worthless. Not to mention: really unpleasant, IMO.

[thefortrees]

If that were strictly the case, why not do loads of eccentric pistols, reverse hamstring curls, eccentric quad extensions, etc? You can make basically any single-leg exercise purely eccentric by doing the concentric part with both legs. But I don't see anyone who claims eccentrics are key recommend that. AFAICT, Rob Shaul seems to have popularized the idea (at least with the general public) that eccentric loading is key and came up with leg blasters to address the issue...though none of the exercises in leg blasters actually have a purely eccentric component.

Personally, I don't think it's so much the eccentrics as I think it's the idea of resisting downward acceleration. Of course, resisting downward accelerations is a primarily eccentric load on the legs, but it's different than a slow eccentric load. That's why I like banded barbell back squats, where the bands accelerate you downwards faster than gravity, and the drop snatch, where again you have to accelerate downwards faster than gravity by pushing yourself under the bar. I also love jumping lunges, which as DTM said, is probably the best part of the leg blaster complex.

This thread has gone full on EpicSki, PugSki, or CrossFit bro. Not sure which.

Disclaimer: great thread and I’m reading all of it

[wyeaster]

i'm not allowed to do them after knee replacement but i did them for many years because they were a traditional leg exercise. from everything i heard during the decision-making process for surgery i doubt i'd do them if i could do it over.

[auvgeek]

This thread has gone full on EpicSki, PugSki, or CrossFit bro. Not sure which.

Disclaimer: great thread and I’m reading all of it

I lol'd. Dantheman set me straight on that. It was something that had been puzzling me for a while -- the idea that one can move through the same ROM but have a harder eccentric contraction makes a ton of sense now, but I hadn't thought of it that way before.

[charles martel]

Part of a big girl snowboard workout:

https://youtu.be/fg37f_X0VTE

Sent from my SM-T713 using TGR Forums mobile app

[rod9301]

Part of a big girl snowboard workout:

https://youtu.be/fg37f_X0VTE

Sent from my SM-T713 using TGR Forums mobile app

Wow

Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using TGR Forums mobile app

[charles martel]

Wow

Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using TGR Forums mobile app

I know.

Sent from my SM-T713 using TGR Forums mobile app

[Dantheman]

Those one-footed box jump to pistols were pretty boss.

[LiveLarger]

[I've seen black diamonds!]

Part of a big girl snowboard workout:

https://youtu.be/fg37f_X0VTE

Sent from my SM-T713 using TGR Forums mobile app

There is some badass stuff in that workout. I think she may also have a serious case of talent. I'm going to try that pistol jump move just to remind myself of what I'm not. I should probably where a helmet.

Sent from my Pixel using TGR Forums mobile app

[RootSkier]

That chick is fucking rad.

[SUPERIOR]

I’ll disagree with many posters here. While squats and lunges may be more effective, extensions isolate and work the quad. Anyone with patellar tracking issues will use this important exercise and realize its benefits.


Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

[auvgeek]

extensions isolate and work the quad.

why is that important?

Anyone with patellar tracking issues will use this important exercise and realize its benefits.

I have patella tracking issues. Leg extensions and other open kinetic chain exercises make my knee feel worse. AFAICT, working on quad, especially VMO, strength is the old-skool fix for PFS and patellar tendinitis. New theory is that posterior chain (hips, glutes, and hamstring) strength is paramount, along with good mobility in the hips and calfs. Of course, quad strength is important but so many people are already quad dominant, it’s rarely the limiting factor. But I’m always trying to learn, hence my question above.

[SUPERIOR]

Struggled for 2 years with PFS and the docs at Boise State put me on a program to strengthen the VMO, hips, ass, and it was a lifesaver.

Some people have bad issues with cartilage degeneration behind the knee, and I’d wager that extensions aggravate that particular complaint.

Extensions worked really well for me. Full rehab took 4-5 months.

[XavierD]

why is that important? .

It allows you to overload it without hitting other muscles or joints. Say you have an athlete who’s back or hip strength limits their ability to get a full overload of the quad in a squat (pick your variety). This could be a streng issue, an existing injury issue, or a mobility issue. Doesn’t really matter, because unless they are a competitive power lifter, weightlifter, or cross fitter, they don’t have to squat, ever. Anyway, when they load up a bar and squat, they won’t be able to get effective quad growth or development. Now, instead of just going in and spending months just training their butt and back before they can get good leg growth, you could have them train leg extensions prior to squatting. Now, not only will you be able to get effective production out of the first exercise, the quads will be prefatigued going into the squats, and will get some development.

Say someone can do a a full squat and receive good leg development from it, but their sport requires much more quad strength and size then glute or back strength (skiing for example). You can now follow up the squats, and other more total body exercises with leg extensions. This achieves the overload without placing unnecessary risk on a fatigued hip or back.

[rod9301]

It allows you to overload it without hitting other muscles or joints. Say you have an athlete who’s back or hip strength limits their ability to get a full overload of the quad in a squat (pick your variety). This could be a streng issue, an existing injury issue, or a mobility issue. Doesn’t really matter, because unless they are a competitive power lifter, weightlifter, or cross fitter, they don’t have to squat, ever. Anyway, when they load up a bar and squat, they won’t be able to get effective quad growth or development. Now, instead of just going in and spending months just training their butt and back before they can get good leg growth, you could have them train leg extensions prior to squatting. Now, not only will you be able to get effective production out of the first exercise, the quads will be prefatigued going into the squats, and will get some development.

Say someone can do a a full squat and receive good leg development from it, but their sport requires much more quad strength and size then glute or back strength (skiing for example). You can now follow up the squats, and other more total body exercises with leg extensions. This achieves the overload without placing unnecessary risk on a fatigued hip or back.

Can you achieve this with a leg press?
I have arthritis under the patella and leg extensions hurt, unless i lift with both legs, then do leg extensions with one leg only, but not more than 30 degrees of range, from fully extended.

They do seem to work the vmo, but i wonder why bother, since the leg press can be done with really heavy weights and the work most leg muscles.

Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using TGR Forums mobile app

[XavierD]

As with any exercise, I’d only perform what you can do safely. Plenty of ways to train quad strength. If leg presses provide you with ample stimulation, keep doing them.

[auvgeek]

It allows you to overload it without hitting other muscles or joints. Say you have an athlete who’s back or hip strength limits their ability to get a full overload of the quad in a squat (pick your variety). This could be a streng issue, an existing injury issue, or a mobility issue. Doesn’t really matter, because unless they are a competitive power lifter, weightlifter, or cross fitter, they don’t have to squat, ever. Anyway, when they load up a bar and squat, they won’t be able to get effective quad growth or development. Now, instead of just going in and spending months just training their butt and back before they can get good leg growth, you could have them train leg extensions prior to squatting. Now, not only will you be able to get effective production out of the first exercise, the quads will be prefatigued going into the squats, and will get some development.

Say someone can do a a full squat and receive good leg development from it, but their sport requires much more quad strength and size then glute or back strength (skiing for example). You can now follow up the squats, and other more total body exercises with leg extensions. This achieves the overload without placing unnecessary risk on a fatigued hip or back.

You're not wrong in theory, and it might make sense for some people -- in fact, I used to think that way and it was reflected in my training. But my personal opinion now is that if an individual is lacking posterior chain strength to the point where he/she can't get sufficient overload of the quad in a single-leg or double-leg, so-called "functional" movement (e.g., a squat, lunge, step up, pistol, etc) without isolation exercises, then he/she *should* absolutely spend "months just training their butt and back" i.e., doing those movements until the posterior chain is no longer the limiting factor. It's becoming more and more known in the literature that being excessively quad dominant with a weak posterior chain increases the risk of injury to the hips, back, and knees.

And when a muscle is strong/dominant, it tends to work more. If your quads are your strongest leg muscle, your body will adjust to use them more. Even if your quads are what get the most sore, that doesn't necessarily indicate that you need more quad strength for skiing, running, bootpacking, etc -- instead you might need to reduce the load on the quads by strengthening the posterior chain and ingraining a new neuromuscular movement pattern. As always, YMMV.

[XavierD]

I’d argue back skiing requires a lot. Ore out of your quads then glutes or back. Plenty of folks who are very capable squatters find themselves with very sore quads after skiing. They have failed to train their quad muscles adiquatly for the sport. While yes, doing more squats could help them prepare, it also requires much more recovery than just doing quad specific training. By focusing on just their quads they are meeting all of their training requirements, while also enabling more training and faster progress.

In my case, very few people would argue I don’t have adiquate back and hip strength, or under developed quads. At the same time I have never had sore hips or back after skiing. I have had sore quads, and had my quads literally fail on me while skiing early season pow days. This was at the same time I could squat north of 500lb, and could do sets of 20 300lb front squats. My quads were insufficently trained despite being a much more accomplished lifter than many on this forum will ever be. Squatting more was not going to be an efficient way to train my legs for skiing, perhaps massive quantities of leg extensions would have been a more effictive and efficient training strategy. It also would have left more room for training endurance running, which I had to sacrifice to get to a 500lb squat.

[auvgeek]

I enjoy hearing a different perspective, especially from those experienced in lifting. It's just good to keep in mind that exercise can be very individualized. I've felt the way you mention before myself (re quads and skiing) when I was back squatting a lot. My modified approach was to add more front squats, banded squads, and drop snatch -- which definitely made my quads more sore. Then the pendulum swung back and my knees started to be annoyed more often. Maybe I'm just fragile.

[rod9301]

I’d argue back skiing requires a lot. Ore out of your quads then glutes or back. Plenty of folks who are very capable squatters find themselves with very sore quads after skiing. They have failed to train their quad muscles adiquatly for the sport. While yes, doing more squats could help them prepare, it also requires much more recovery than just doing quad specific training. By focusing on just their quads they are meeting all of their training requirements, while also enabling more training and faster progress.

In my case, very few people would argue I don’t have adiquate back and hip strength, or under developed quads. At the same time I have never had sore hips or back after skiing. I have had sore quads, and had my quads literally fail on me while skiing early season pow days. This was at the same time I could squat north of 500lb, and could do sets of 20 300lb front squats. My quads were insufficently trained despite being a much more accomplished lifter than many on this forum will ever be. Squatting more was not going to be an efficient way to train my legs for skiing, perhaps massive quantities of leg extensions would have been a more effictive and efficient training strategy. It also would have left more room for training endurance running, which I had to sacrifice to get to a 500lb squat.

Could it be technique?



Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using TGR Forums mobile app

[I've seen black diamonds!]

I’d argue back skiing requires a lot. Ore out of your quads then glutes or back. Plenty of folks who are very capable squatters find themselves with very sore quads after skiing. They have failed to train their quad muscles adiquatly for the sport. While yes, doing more squats could help them prepare, it also requires much more recovery than just doing quad specific training. By focusing on just their quads they are meeting all of their training requirements, while also enabling more training and faster progress.

In my case, very few people would argue I don’t have adiquate back and hip strength, or under developed quads. At the same time I have never had sore hips or back after skiing. I have had sore quads, and had my quads literally fail on me while skiing early season pow days. This was at the same time I could squat north of 500lb, and could do sets of 20 300lb front squats. My quads were insufficently trained despite being a much more accomplished lifter than many on this forum will ever be. Squatting more was not going to be an efficient way to train my legs for skiing, perhaps massive quantities of leg extensions would have been a more effictive and efficient training strategy. It also would have left more room for training endurance running, which I had to sacrifice to get to a 500lb squat.

But why leg extensions?

I've been in a similar boat. When I was wrestling and fitter than I ever care to be again I was training hard enough to sweat out 8-10lbs of water weight over a 2 hour practice 5 days a week. I could squat well over 2 x bodyweight. And I was spending hours a week in a deep crouch. The only time I felt very sore was when I went skiing. In fact, I got more sore back then, I think because I was strong enough to ski in ways my body wasn't ready for.

Wrestling and lifting didn't have me repeatedly relying on my quads for rapid deceleration. That's what leg blasters do. Or what that Johnny Mosely dry land mogul skiing vid shows. I have a hard time imagining leg extensions achieving the same thing. I also suspect that the benefits of a 500 lb squat shouldn't be discounted because of some early season soreness. I reckon a lot of folks, including me, would be better skiers if they were as strong (although for recreational skiing a 500 lb squat almost certainly represent a diminishing returns scenario).

If leg extensions have worked for you I'd love to hear what sort of protocol you used. I recall Herman Maier using very long low intensities on an exercise bike during his big recovery. That didn't make sense to me either, but I don't doubt he was being well advised.

[east or bust]

skiing is no different than any other athletically demanding sport. professional athletes in high intensity sports (hockey, football, ski racing come to mind) don't get by relying on shear strength, it's power lifting coupled with more aerobic routines like the workout video earlier. it's hard to find the time to do both for peasants like us

[auvgeek]

Could it be technique?



Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using TGR Forums mobile app

No, I’ve skied with him and he skis well and doesn’t muscle through it too much. Always room for improvement, but I don’t think that’s really the problem in his case. I think when you want to charge hard, you just have to be really strong. Somewhere between 1000# squat and 2 hr marathon strong.