Backcountry group-Etiquette thread aka how to be a good touring partner

[auvgeek]

I don't recall having seen this particular thread before (and I did search), but with more and more people getting into the backcountry, I thought it would be good to start a thread on good backcountry etiquette for touring in groups -- though some of the stuff applies to touring with a single other person and not everything below is strictly a breach of etiquette. It's meant to be a thread about interpersonal relationships and inter-group dynamics in the backcountry, with an emphasis on what not to do as a newbie -- generally stuff on how to be a good partner that you wouldn't necessarily get from the standard avy 1. With some random pieces of advice for backcountry JONGs thrown in.

This thread is NOT about the knowledge on how to move safely in avalanche terrain, how to skin, glacier navigation, etc. Read this thread for that: https://www.tetongravity.com/forums/...y-Jong-thread)

Here's an article TGR wrote: https://www.tetongravity.com/story/s...ry-ski-partner

... but I started this thread because I think it's more than that short article covers. I'm not the most experienced person out there and I'm certainly guilty of committing more than a few faux pas in the past -- but mostly because nobody said anything and I didn't have enough self-awareness to realize people might not want to get out with me if they had to wait for me to pack my pack and put my skins on every morning, for example.

Anyway, here's a list that my wife and I came up with randomly last spring, in no particular order. Some are serious breaches of etiquette that can make for unsafe situations (if you do/don't do them), while others are just suggestions for things that are just nice to do, things that can make you an above-and-beyond type of touring partner. This list doesn't include basic stuff like don't forget XYZ thing (avy kit, skins, food/water, puffy, etc).

- Listen to everybody in the group. Most groups follow the loudest, fittest, best skier, particularly if he's male in a mostly male group. Sometimes the most experienced/educated person is:
a) the youngest
b) the slowest
c) the worst skier
d) a girl
e) the most risk averse
f) all/any of the above (especially if he/she is coming off an injury)

- Don't be afraid to speak up. Everybody gets a voice. If you're fast, don't get so far ahead of the slower people so they can't speak up if they get uncomfortable with the route or snow conditions.

- On the flip side, if you have avalanche or weather concerns, express them sooner rather than later, definitely before it becomes an unsolvable problem. Especially don't wait till you're at the summit to say you're uncomfortable with anybody in the group skiing down in any direction. [yes, that's happened to me] And don't be a whiner. If you have concerns, voice them but for the love of god also voice a possible solution.

- Take an interest in the route planning and avy discussion, even if you're inexperienced. Read the avy and wx forecast. Look at a map of the area. Don't expect someone to guide you unless you're paying them.

- Do NOT indicate you "know the route" if you don't actually know the route (i.e., you've been there before, preferably recently). Don't indicate that you "know where we're going" if you aren't prepared to navigate, for the whole group if necessary.

- Stick to the plan. If the group selects a route or terrain, follow it. If the group sets a turn-around time, follow it. You shouldn't have to be reminded, especially if you're the fastest person and out of ear shot of the rest of the group. If you think the decision was too conservative, a short discussion to re-evaluate is reasonable but don't make a big thing about it once the plan has been made. (And obviously, decisions are made with the weakest, most risk-averse person in mind but that's hammered into you in avy classes.)

- If you're moving faster than other people in the party, don't do the "F*** you stop" to slower people, i.e., don't charge off when the slower people get close or arrive where you're waiting. Instead, give them a chance to catch their breath, drink some water, eat some food, etc when they get to where you're stopped. Experienced backcountry people with healthy egos will encourage the slower people to stop and drink water/eat food by waiting for everyone to arrive and asking if anyone needs food/water. If the slowest person is a JONG, he/she often won't take the time to stop and drink water if the rest of the group leaves when he/she arrives. On that note, travel at a pace you think you can sustain for the entire tour. Don't start off racing only to bonk in an hour.

- When you are stopped, use the time productively. Especially if you're a slower person, you should generally be doing one or more of several things: getting warm, eating, hydrating, transitioning, discussing route selection/wx/avy conditions, etc. Basically, don't chat and goof off while other people wait for you. It might sound harsh, but it sucks to wait for people to catch up, listen to them chat about random topics while everyone transitions, and then have to wait for them while they decide that now they want some food or water, and then finally transition.

- Ask everyone in the group before you invite someone. It sucks when you thought it was going to be a group of 3 and then Johnny invited Jeanie who invited Mary and suddenly it's a huge cluster.

- If you invite the slowest/most inexperienced person, it is your responsibility to babysit them. Do not invite the most inexperienced person, and then skin ahead and ignore them while they struggle. If they are really struggling (or break a piece of gear), you must being willing to break from the main group to buddy with that person on a mellower/shorter/safer objective if the rest of the group decides to continue on to the main objective. Generally, avoid inviting people you've never skied with before on serious outings with your more experienced partners.

- Be honest, open, and humble, about your abilities on skiing, navigation, wx, medical training, fitness, etc. And don't get defensive if someone offers advice; take it graciously. But if you're more experienced, don't put anyone down or belittle them for not knowing something. Above all, pick your battles and don't start a fight. (Aside: if the most experienced person in the group gets injured, is the rest of the group capable of successful extraction? Do you need to adjust your objectives for that scenario?)

- If you have to be back in town by a certain time, disclose it during the trip planning or the night before leaving at the absolute latest. Do not wait until you're at the trailhead to let the group know. More experienced people often think that if you commit to a day trip, it's implied that a return anytime the same calendar day is reasonable...especially on a weekend day. You should not have undisclosed plans in town that evening, unless you're willing to break them without notice.

- Don't bring a surprise trail dog. Let folks know that your pup will be joining.

- Leave the earbuds/headphones at the car. Your partners shouldn't have to compete with your terrible choice in music just to discuss wx and avy conditions.

- Always, ALWAYS bring a headlamp.

- Arrive at the meeting point 5 minutes early with your pack packed and your skins on your skis (unless it starts with a downhill ski). When you get to the meeting point/TH, you shouldn't have to pack your pack from stuff strewn around your mobile closet/gear locker (aka car). At the TH, you should just have to put on your boots, turn on your beacon, and click in.

- Dress appropriately. It's always best to start out a little cold so you don't have to stop right away to shed a layer. At the same time, don't be afraid to stop and shed a layer if you're too warm. We'd all rather wait a few minutes than have you get super sweaty and then chilled. In the absence of sufficient personal experience, find out what your most experience partners wear and mimic it to the best of your ability. Do not skin in your hardshell on a warm day because it "looks cute."

- Eat and drink before leaving. You can only carry so much food and water and take so many food/snack breaks so eating and hydrating beforehand helps. Leaving the TH already dehydrated and starving makes for a bad day. (Obviously don't so much eat right before you start skinning that you feel sluggish and can't exercise. Eat at home or as early as possible.)

Bonus points:

- Take photos and share with everyone afterwards. Don't play favorites based on someone's social media presence. Everybody enjoys photos, even if they don't have instagram or facebook. On the flip side, don't stop in a dangerous spot or take your time taking photos when conditions necessitate moving quickly. Your following isn't worth your life or anyone in the group's. (this last part is important and isn't bonus points.) Also, don't post photos of people to social media without their permission.

- Bring extra snacks to share. If you and the group drinks, bring beer to bury in the snow at the trailhead for afterwards. If someone doesn't drink, respect that, too, and if you tour with them regularly, maybe even find out what they like to drink instead. (As always, if you're the driver in a carpool situation, respect that the people riding in your car not want you to drink before driving.)

I know it sounds like a lot, and I'm sure I'll get some snarky comment about how fun I must be to tour with -- that's fine. I can take the heat. Most of the stuff above has happened to me and made an otherwise fun day less enjoyable. And I'm sure I've messed up my partner's days by doing something they didn't like. Discussing it makes it easier for people to learn. So what else do people want their touring partners to do/not do?

[Banh Mi]

I cant wait to pair up with you on my DPS Spoons and Dukes!


Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

[auvgeek]

I have 202 L138s and Dukes.

#lezdoit

[AdironRider]

Bring snacks to share?

[Banh Mi]

I have 202 L138s and Dukes.

#lezdoit

I knew you had the goodz! Why cant I has?


Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

[auvgeek]

I knew you had the goodz! Why cant I has?

Cuz I partially snapped the core on one and don't like skiing it in anything except mellow terrain. Otherwise I'd sell them to you or let you borrow.

Bring snacks to share?

For bonus points, especially if it's a big group with newbies in it since some of them may have forgotten enough food. It's just a thing my wife does, and I thought it worth mentioning. YMMV.

[AdironRider]

Sounds like Kindergarten to me.

[auvgeek]

Thanks for your feedback. I'll be sure to let her know some you think it's childish. Personally, I appreciate it when my touring partners offer me a piece of chocolate or whatever. But I'll be sure to bring food only for me if we ever end up touring together.

[californiagrown]

Don't bring a surprise trail dog. Let folks know that your pup will be joining.

Dont be a whiner. If you have concerns voice them, but for the love of god also voice a possible solution.

I also bring a dime-bag (1-2 serving) of pre-workout powder. Has helped me rally a MTB partner that was crushed at the bottom of a 1500' climb out at the end of a day, and will help in a similar snowy situation.

[auvgeek]

Don't bring a surprise trail dog. Let folks know that your pup will be joining.

Dont be a whiner. If you have concerns voice them, but for the love of god also voice a possible solution.

Excellent additions; added to the OP.

[S_jenks]

Don't let social media worm it's way into the group dynamics, and be cautious of those who post a ton.

It's not a disqualification, but the need to 'get after it' and show people that you are 'killing it out there' are dangerous attitudes.

One more than one occasion I've been out with a backcountry partner discussing less-than-optimal conditions, and had concerns dismissed because he wanted to 'get the shot'. Sometimes that kind of attitude won't show in a person until you're out in the BC, and it can blind a person's decision-making process and mess with the group.

Good ski photos can make wonderful memories. But leave the social media crap at the trail head.

[AdironRider]

Thanks for your feedback. I'll be sure to let her know some you think it's childish. Personally, I appreciate it when my touring partners offer me a piece of chocolate or whatever. But I'll be sure to bring food only for me if we ever end up touring together.

I'm not saying only bring food for yourself, but it isn't a breach of etiquette like you imply either.

Words have meanings.

[auvgeek]

I'm not saying only bring food for yourself, but it isn't a breach of etiquette like you imply either.

Words have meanings.

I never implied (certainly never meant to imply) it was a breach of etiquette. It's also not a breach of etiquette not to take or share photos or to arrive exactly on time instead of 5 min early or not bring beer for the trailhead.

Words do have meanings. Where did I specifically say not bringing snacks is a breach of etiquette? I strive for clarity in my writing so please let me know how I should have worded it differently. I tried to put more qualifiers in the OP.

[Banh Mi]

2 serving of pre-workout

Attachment 246587

[PNWbrit]

If you and the group drinks, bring beer for the trailhead. If someone doesn't drink, respect that, too, and maybe even find out what they like to drink instead. (As always, if you're the driver in a carpool situation, respect that the people you're driving with might not want you to drink.)

Along similar lines and this will get some people upset.

Ask if anyone minds before you get high while in the BC with them.

Also don't be the chatty Cathy in the group that never fucking shuts up while skinning. Enjoy the quiet.

Good thread.

[californiagrown]

Attachment 246587

I mean, i imagine those truckstop counter energy pills would work too, but i am too scared to try them out haha.

[Foggy_Goggles]

Don't be a fart sniffer

Lead beacon checks

Ask questions, don't make statements

Don't cross tracks

Don't lie about your abilities

Don't fall ever

Break trail

Don't get hurt

Know first aid

BC skiing is life of death. Don't go into the backcountry with anyone you don't trust your life to and vice versa.

Have your equipment dialed

Understand what group decision making is

[BFD]

how about never going with a group larger than 3. skiing with people that have similar interests and values. That way you could enjoy a conversation on the skin track or stop and enjoy a nice day on top of a mountain together.
I never thought much about the social media thing as TGR is pretty much my only outlet. However two seasons ago I skied with someone talking about instagram and ended the day in the ER. I take blame for not speaking up. But yes avoid those that need to post on social media.

[AdironRider]

I never implied (certainly never meant to imply) it was a breach of etiquette. It's also not a breach of etiquette not to take or share photos or to arrive exactly on time instead of 5 min early or not bring beer for the trailhead.

Words do have meanings. Where did I specifically say not bringing snacks is a breach of etiquette? I strive for clarity in my writing so please let me know how I should have worded it differently. I tried to put more qualifiers in the OP.

I probably wouldn't include it in a list of things described as proper etiquette. I mean it is literally in the title you created for the thread.

I by no means would turn down candy either though. It just comes off as douchey listing it right after a bunch of safety minded items. Like one is more important than the other, but your context implies equal.

[auvgeek]

I probably wouldn't include it in a list of things described as proper etiquette. I mean it is literally in the title you created for the thread.

I by no means would turn down candy either though. It just comes off as douchey listing it right after a bunch of safety minded items. Like one is more important than the other, but your context implies equal.

Okay, I tried to edited my original post sufficiently. Thanks for mentioning. I certainly wasn't trying to be douchey at all.

[raisingarizona13]

Bring snacks to share?

It's a great way to bond with each other and good, surprise snacks always put a smile on someones face. It also shows a kind of selflessness that says a lot about a touring partner.

[viglio]

I always bring an extra down jacket stuffed in the bottom of my pack as insurance in the case of that one guy getting hurt who forgot to bring one. Weight on them is negligible now, and you can buy a cheap beater from a thrift store or Eddie Bauer to always have with ya.

[garyfromterrace]

I don't recall having seen this particular thread before (and I did search), but with more and more people getting into the backcountry, I thought it would be good to start a thread on good backcountry etiquette for touring.....

blah, blah, blah,... nice blog auvgeek.

I like.

...I also bring a dime-bag (1-2 serving), I laughed.
My substitute is a pack of shot blocks though.

Good thread.

edit - below is good form.

I always bring an extra down jacket stuffed in the bottom of my pack as insurance in the case of that one guy getting hurt who forgot to bring one. Weight on them is negligible now, and you can buy a cheap beater from a thrift store or Eddie Bauer to always have with ya.

[BFD]

you should always carry one layer more than you plan to use. so should your partner.

[hawkgt]