Backcountry group-Etiquette thread aka how to be a good touring partner

[mall walker]

alright, my biggest gripe with these rules is regarding slow people. personally, if someone I've never toured with shows up with plate bindings that is likely the last time I tour with that person. I think finding people that are about the same speed/ability as you is key and people with plate bindings are inherently slow.

Same... but I think this whole thread is largely geared toward bigger groups with newer people. Incidentally, I will say I've toured with at least two very fast people on frame bindings, like faster than me on pins, one mag (snowaddict) and one non. Both former patrol, how about that. But in general, I don't tour a lot with people much slower than me. And the Dorais bros don't seem in any hurry to tour with someone my speed either.

[auvgeek]

Finally, I have some touring partners who pretty much break all the "rules" that have been listed but they are so fun to tour with that I don't really care. So the "don't be a dick" rule is also a good core principle along with "chill bro".

Oh, for sure.

The main reason I started this thread was to encourage conversation around these topics, especially for backcountry JONGs. It absolutely wasn't about making a hard list of rules every person needs to follow all the time, and I really, really wasn't trying to imply experienced backcountry travelers with an established touring group need to change their behavior and do stuff like take photos and share them or bring extra snacks to share in order to be better partners. The thing is, you don't always know when you're annoying someone. For example, it honestly never occurred to me that my touring partners might get fed up waiting for me at the TH to put my skins on my skis and pack my pack from the pile of gear that constantly lived in my car when I skied all the time. Yeah, it seems super obvious but I didn't notice until my wife mentioned it (nicely) when we first started dating and were skiing together often. And after Tahoe J's comment, I look back at certain tours and realize, "Yeah, I definitely apologized way too much for being slow. That's my partners acted weird about it; not cuz they were mad I was slower than them." It's just nice to know some of this stuff when you're trying to cultivate new touring partners.

[ridinshockgun]

I'm a big believer in snack sharing, but a bigger believer in pocket snacks so you don't need to stop if you are getting hungry. .

This. The world needs more pocket snack packers.

[Norseman]

Is that bacon in your pocket? Or have you been working under the truck in your ski shell again?

[PNWbrit]

The whole group should take turns packing out the hunting paraphernalia they decide to remove.

[muted]

If you come across Andrew Mclean on top of a mountain, don't panic. But make sure you tell him that he shouldn't worry, after your break you are taking your pack with you and please don't take it.

I urge all Utards to do this in the upcoming season.

[3PinGrin]

alright, my biggest gripe with these rules is regarding slow people. personally, if someone I've never toured with shows up with plate bindings that is likely the last time I tour with that person, unless they have a lot of weed. I think finding people that are about the same speed/ability as you is key and people with plate bindings are inherently slow.

FIFY

Joking aside, I think this thread has brought to light three general types of touring groups. Those there to climb fast and get as many turns as possible; the greenhorns that are just starting out or don't tour enough to have the knowledge, preparation, fitness, or experience to be ready to go reasonably quickly once parked at the destination and keep up with the group; and then there is my favorite group that falls somewhere in the middle. This third group can include extremely fit people that could smoke most of the group members but choose not to because they are often older and from an earlier generation where backcountry skiing was as much about exploration and conversation with good friends as it was about trying to get the most number of turns possible. It also includes people new to the sport that feel comfortable with this group.

Some people have to get to work or home right after skiing, understood. Some people want to visit, chuckle, and generally enjoy life a bit as they get their shit together at the parking spot but still get plenty of turns in, understood. Some people don't know what the hell they are doing and are probably either nervous as shit or embarrassed because they feel they are holding up the show, we've all been there, understood.

I think the most important thing for new backcountry skiers is to get educated about travel and safety in winter, understand that different ski groups have different goals, and find a group that you are comfortable with. If things seem uncomfortable after that first trip, find a different group.

Me, I usually ski solo because I get tired of the assholes in the other groups.

[mall walker]

Joking aside, I think this thread has brought to light three general types of touring groups. Those there to climb fast and get as many turns as possible; the greenhorns that are just starting out or don't tour enough to have the knowledge, preparation, fitness, or experience to be ready to go reasonably quickly once parked at the destination and keep up with the group; and then there is my favorite group that falls somewhere in the middle. This third group can include extremely fit people that could smoke most of the group members but choose not to because they are often older and from an earlier generation where backcountry skiing was as much about exploration and conversation with good friends as it was about trying to get the most number of turns possible. It also includes people new to the sport that feel comfortable with this group.

Some people have to get to work or home right after skiing, understood. Some people want to visit, chuckle, and generally enjoy life a bit as they get their shit together at the parking spot but still get plenty of turns in, understood. Some people don't know what the hell they are doing and are probably either nervous as shit or embarrassed because they feel they are holding up the show, we've all been there, understood.

I think the most important thing for new backcountry skiers is to get educated about travel and safety in winter, understand that different ski groups have different goals, and find a group that you are comfortable with. If things seem uncomfortable after that first trip, find a different group.

good post

Me, I usually ski solo because I get tired of the assholes in the other groups.

+1

[wyeaster]

so is there low angle stuff around mt hood that is not highly populated? i've done most of my resort riding alone.

[pfluffenmeister]

^^^ Snicker.

[mall walker]

so is there low angle stuff around mt hood that is not highly populated? i've done most of my resort riding alone.

bring yer splitter to BBIUT

[wyeaster]

bring yer splitter to BBIUT

i will but i need to find some cheap used bindings and skins. i also don't have any avalanche gear (except an avalung) or training

[wyeaster]

everything around Mt Hood is low angle.

yes i know but where people who think it is not low angle aren't!

[criscam]

Don’t invite your buddy from the east coast (me) to a hudge tour with a shit ton of switchbacks on day 1 at elevation after feeding him 8 beers the night before. ....and then drop into a basin that also requires a long tour out of and wonder why he is half dead close to tears and contemplating just spending his remaining days in the backcountry rather than tackle a single additional switch back. Some group discussion about distance, degree of difficulty, level of hang over and prior experience all helpful.

I just figured my hangover was worse so whatever we did we’d be on par.

[reckless toboggan]

Don’t invite your buddy from the east coast (me) to a hudge tour with a shit ton of switchbacks on day 1 at elevation after feeding him 8 beers the night before. ....and then drop into a basin that also requires a long tour out of and wonder why he is half dead close to tears and contemplating just spending his remaining days in the backcountry rather than tackle a single additional switch back. Some group discussion about distance, degree of difficulty, level of hang over and prior experience all helpful.

I just figured my hangover was worse so whatever we did we’d be on par.

I think there should be some sort of AC/PSIA/AA ranking card with different shapes and colors to factor this into the Avaluator risk/condition system.

Or maybe an option you could enable on the Avalanche Canada app that would adjust risk based on how hungover you and your partners are.

[mall walker]

i will but i need to find some cheap used bindings and skins. i also don't have any avalanche gear (except an avalung) or training

well clamps and skins need to fit, but i’d bet we’ll have some avy gear here for you. and plenty of mellow terrain, and moderate, and advanced etc

[GPP33]

I’ve just scanned through this thread since last posting but here’s my 2 cents.

If you get hung up on people’s speed, too fast or too slow, you probably aren’t much fun to ski with.

If you smoke weed in the BC I’ll still ski with you but I’m not going to put myself in a situation where I might need to count on you to save my ass. I’ll adjust my objectives based on your sobriety.

The comments about not taking someone somewhere someone else showed you are BS. No one owns the BC, if you have a stash you don’t want people to know about don’t show people. Have fun skiing it alone!

There seems to be a lot of fear associated with going out with new people. If you don’t know someone set your objectives appropriately. They may be a dud you never ski with again or they may become your best ski partner. At some point you were the new guy, give em a chance.

Most importantly, you are there to have fun, don’t get so worked up about every detail. Help people when you can, ski powder when you can.

[wyeaster]

well clamps and skins need to fit, but i’d bet we’ll have some avy gear here for you. and plenty of mellow terrain, and moderate, and advanced etc

that's very kind. thank you. it might be a bridge too far for me to get the splitboard geared up and get to utah but we'll see how it goes. i look forward to seeing some familiar faces and meeting some new ones.

[SILENCER]

Lots of useful information in this thread. One of the common themes that keeps resurfacing is the dynamic of the "new invite". A couple of strategies that I use here is to use shorter, close-to-home tours to check out newcomers. I've had great success with this approach. Secondly, the group that I hit the backcountry with is very open and transparent when someone is bringing in a newcomer. We discuss this well before we head out for the trail head and we know that it's not cool to deal with "surprises" when we are headed somewhere that "counts".

Sent from my SM-G960U using TGR Forums mobile app

Bingo. I do the same thing.

I personally am kind of in this no-man's land between often newer, or a bit slower but no less enthusiastic skiers...and some of the most accomplished (almost always faster) skiers in the state that I tour with only occasionally. When I go out with group "A", I almost always pick close to home, well worn routes that build confidence. I'm hit up by lots of people new to the sport to have me "take them out", happens every season. The expectations are set right away, and they all know their ability levels. These days are often really fun because the pace isn't crushing everybody, and there is room for banter & laughs. Yeah, we don't get a ton of vert, but that's not the point. Some "graduate" from this group. That always rules. But it's funny how many have very high expectations and goals, but do little beyond the dead basics; they never up their avy game from a basic course to Avy 1, never really get in shape...or never take their gear seriously enough (other than having the dead basics). I even put together a three-tiered gear list I share. "Must have", "Nice to have", "Spring Lines".

As it transitions to spring my options whittle down of who to tour with. I only have a couple partners about where I am in the grand scheme. The group "A" type don't necessarily have their spring game or comfort level yet, and usually transition to warmer weather, lower elevation sports anyway. So group sizes shrink further and I move from the fastest to the typically the slowest in the group "B" circles. I tour with these folks the least, because I'm absolutely self conscious of slowing them down to where they can't hit their objectives. I guess I'm siding with Adrenalated here in that I don't think groups should split up on the hill. I can lag on the climb, yeah. But I just rally harder at the transition as to not slow everything down and split up. In my mind it's a safety thing. Even if the route is pretty straightforward, well, shit happens. If I'm on my own and something happens...no bueno. Luckily, a few of these group B'ers are excellent partners and are well aware of my abilities and speed and choose the route accordingly because they like skiing with me. It still weighs heavy on my mind and absolutely don't fuck around on the hill; I don't want to squander the opportunity to ski with them. Plus, it makes time to get us up bigger stuff!

To group size comments in this thread. I'm most comfortable in groups of 2-4, but have soloed easy stuff, as well as gone out on lower risk/expectation days with bigger groups. But I'm certainly aware of group think. A rule in the last few seasons I've stayed pretty strict to is no more than 5. In my Avy 1, my instructor shared data with us saying statistically the safest groups are 3-5. Mind you, this is safety...this has nothing to do with how fast the group travels, etc. But it basically comes from if someone gets injured, there is always one or two people to go get help if the injured is immobilized. Second, above five people gets into dangerous group-think situations much easier (Tunnel Creek anyone? Etc.). This rule has served me well. The bigger groups are often the group "A" days I described above, where it's often learning time for them on very safe terrain. But I drive it home, and have had to turn interested parties away. That often lets me know how serious they are; aka some I don't hear back from afterwards for later tours.

Lastly, someone said earlier about not getting blotto the night before. If I show up at the TH and someone says, "I didn't sleep well" or "I tweaked my back in my sleep", I appreciate their honesty, find that reasonable and will almost always accommodate happily. But the folks that are sub-par due to a bender....they don't get the invite call anymore. I mean, why would do that the night before? We ALL have definitely had "memorable" days at the resort after partying hard the night before; that's kinda the fabric of the resort/ski town life. Totally acceptable. But b/c is so, so different with vastly different stakes.

Anyway.


Excellent thread.

[raisingarizona13]

Down here we usually break em off with the first traverse or skin track up the front side. Skinning/climbing/traversing on rock, rime and ice tends to weed em out pretty quickly. It's rare that we have that picture perfect, easy going skin track up through pristine powder. Our mountain stands like a wind beacon rising 7000 feet from the surrounding deserts and the alpine gets hammered, loaded in other places but you gotta get there before you can ski anything worth while. There's some good with the bad for skiing in Arizona.

[S_jenks]

I’ve just scanned through this thread since last posting but here’s my 2 cents.

If you get hung up on people’s speed, too fast or too slow, you probably aren’t much fun to ski with.

If you smoke weed in the BC I’ll still ski with you but I’m not going to put myself in a situation where I might need to count on you to save my ass. I’ll adjust my objectives based on your sobriety.

The comments about not taking someone somewhere someone else showed you are BS. No one owns the BC, if you have a stash you don’t want people to know about don’t show people. Have fun skiing it alone!

There seems to be a lot of fear associated with going out with new people. If you don’t know someone set your objectives appropriately. They may be a dud you never ski with again or they may become your best ski partner. At some point you were the new guy, give em a chance.

Most importantly, you are there to have fun, don’t get so worked up about every detail. Help people when you can, ski powder when you can.

Well-written, thanks chowder lover. Saving this.

[sruffian]

it's either "no shit, i know i'm going slow - thanks for making light of the situation so everybody knows i suck" or as in klar's situation "jesus dude, i'm just out here to have a good time, no need to overly encourage a fit, fully capable, experienced adult who is more than comfortable in this situation and could most likely pass your ass on the way up and lap your ass later in the day"

i do my best to avoid people who make me feel this way - type "a" go-getters who always seem to have something to prove...i like chill folk the best

Word. My original post about encouraging words had more to do with that 3pm feeling when you started at daybreak or are on a multi-day. And the value of eating fructose in those situations. Of course people 'see through' encouraging words. It works anyway.

[mall walker]

i noticed that the night before binger factor can actually help the less speedy in a group. it’s what we locally call the Mofro equalizer. the more he drinks the night before the better chance we have of seeing him on the up once the race had begun. my method of touring with him involved following his trail then watching him ski past then watching him pass me, hopefully close enough to the top so i can again watch him ski. this method has worked well enough that i don’t feel like an anchor.

lol

[PNWbrit]

my method of touring with him involved following his trail then watching him ski past then watching him pass me, hopefully close enough to the top so i can again watch him ski.

This all sounds very familiar to many of us.

[wyeaster]

do i need to dive into the world of sloboarding to get you on board? here’s what your next move should be, get ahold of pipedream and tell him your situation. even on a temporary basis i bet he could help you get that ghey trey functioning uphill.
fkna i have skins that we could cut&paste to get you going. fuckin rog used to brag on skinny skins with no tail clips on his skishit for the meadow skipping he does.
...when Nopostholio heads south to shows you some stuff in your Hood, i’ll have him bring you a few lengths of material and clips, he can show you how to mcgyver em to fit your split.

thanks, man. i appreciate those thoughts and will get on it.