Backcountry group-Etiquette thread aka how to be a good touring partner

[Norseman]

... good backcountry etiquette...

...This thread isn't about the knowledge on how to move safely in avalanche terrain, how to skin, glacier navigation, etc. Read this thread for that: https://www.tetongravity.com/forums/...y-Jong-thread)...

....

Stay focused, folks...

This is the "interpersonal skills/habits of BC partners" thread. Prob just as crucial as terrain selection, snowpack eval, partner rescue, gear etc... and not entirely separate, but different.

[Self Jupiter]

Nice thread. Thanks AG!

[TahoeJ]

Good thread.

Don't make excuses. It's okay to say you're out of shape right now or getting over a cold so you'll be moving slower than usual, but no need to carry on about it. Regardless, there's always going to be someone faster so get over it. And don't apologize repeatedly. (this can apply to mountain-biking as well)

[auvgeek]

It's okay to say you're out of shape right now or getting over a cold so you'll be moving slower than usual, but no need to carry on about it. Regardless, there's always going to be someone faster so get over it. And don't apologize repeatedly.

I like it. Been guilty of this one before for sure.

[GPP33]

Can we add don't show up hung over to a planned big day

and...

if someone is annoying you don't start a fight in the back country? Kinda kills the vibe.

[eagleskier]

how about never going with a group larger than 3. skiing with people that have similar interests and values. That way you could enjoy a conversation on the skin track or stop and enjoy a nice day on top of a mountain together.
I never thought much about the social media thing as TGR is pretty much my only outlet. However two seasons ago I skied with someone talking about instagram and ended the day in the ER. I take blame for not speaking up. But yes avoid those that need to post on social media.

+1 for small group size, although I'm fine with 4.
IMO being a good touring partner starts with figuring out how to get lined up with people who I like. Thru the years, I've gravitated to a group of fellow backcountry skiers that are fun to be around. We know each other and have fun when we are out there. The interesting thing is that hardly any of my friends from my other "social circles" ski the backcountry. I had to go out and find backcountry partners. (That might be an entirely different thread; how to find good backcountry partners). But bottom-line for me is that skiing is too fun and life is too short to waste my time in the backcountry with someone that I don't genuinely like and get along with.

[I've seen black diamonds!]

"I've never seen it slide" is not a good explanation for why you think something is safe to ski. Even if you're right it puts your partners in an awkward situation. Local knowledge is good and all, but you should be ready to back it up with a deeper understanding of snowpack.

If it's your first time touring with someone be prepared to be much slower or much faster than your partner, and be cool about it.

Along the same lines, when you're with a new or inexperienced partners discuss ahead of time why it might be a good idea to be conservative. This can reduce awkward discussions about disparate goals that emerge during a tour, or people getting in over their heads because they desperately want to keep up. Decide on a safe route/ backup plan and agree to take that route if anyone isn't feeling safe or strong. If someone looks real tired or nervous offer to take the safe/easy way before they need to ask. If everyone ends up being fit, competent and on the same page you can still decide to ski the radder line.

Bring skin wax. If there is likely to be wet, fresh snow offer it up before anyone clicks in.

[Danno]

Good thread.

Don't make excuses. It's okay to say you're out of shape right now or getting over a cold so you'll be moving slower than usual, but no need to carry on about it. Regardless, there's always going to be someone faster so get over it. And don't apologize repeatedly. (this can apply to mountain-biking as well)

yeah, I am almost always the slow guy, I'm probably fast for someone in Iowa but slow for the people around me in Boulder. And I do make a point to acknowledge that I realize I'm the slow guy, and very occasionally apologize. But I sure as fuck don't apologize every time I pull up to the group.

As the slow guy, I'd add one to the thread: if you know that you're slower, act is you are cognizant of that fact, and to the extent you can, mitigate it (for ex, while mt biking, I rarely stop for a long breather, if I have to stop I hop off the bike and start walking, so that I am not too far behind).

[Danno]

Bring skin wax. If there is likely to be wet, fresh snow offer it up before anyone clicks in.

A given in my pack, and offering it at the TH is good advice.

[auvgeek]

And I do make a point to acknowledge that I realize I'm the slow guy, and very occasionally apologize. But I sure as fuck don't apologize every time I pull up to the group.

I read once that you can make people around you more comfortable by thanking them for their behavior instead of apologizing for yours. So I try to say stuff like, "Thanks for waiting." upbeat and with a smile instead of "sorry I'm so slow [insert excuse here]." Not a huge difference, but it keeps it more positive.

if you know that you're slower, act is you are cognizant of that fact, and to the extent you can, mitigate it

Yes, that's what I was trying to say in one of the points above. Even if you're the slowest person on the uphill, you can still try to transition fast, you can eat and drink while everyone else is chatting, etc.

[babybear]

how about never going with a group larger than 3.

this is essentially #1 for me
I love skiing with a rat pack inbounds, but not out of bounds/ BC. There's also that old rule that every extra person beyond 2 or 3 will add 30+ minutes
And to be clear I am not fast at skinning- it's just more potential for complications& delay and I like smaller group conversations/ decision making better

Good thread.

Don't make excuses. It's okay to say you're out of shape right now or getting over a cold so you'll be moving slower than usual, but no need to carry on about it. Regardless, there's always going to be someone faster so get over it. And don't apologize repeatedly. (this can apply to mountain-biking as well)

ugh I have a friend who does this constantly. I really like things about her but almost can't do outdoor activities w/ her anymore. the strangest thing is that she is a BA athlete and usually is leading/in front of me -but it's always this or that why I don't feel the best today that dominates the conversation. it's such an energy/ enjoyment suck
so # whatever we're at now- dont do that ^

[skibum93]

These might be more safety focused, but worth mentioning-

Always discuss the objectives/hazards/goals at the trailhead so everyone is in agreement at the start

Bring radios. Life savers for communicating with the group in foggy conditions or during an emergency

Unlike in the summer, trailmix doesn't melt, so having extra in the backpack is your best friend

Everyone dig. Don't just watch one person make the snowpit

This is very location and safety dependent, but as a general rule, please build skin tracks away from the main ski routes if possible. It's a buzzkill to have someone in the middle of your line and presents an unnecessary safety hazard.

Be polite and friendly to other groups, including if you are passing them or you are being passed

[PNWbrit]

Be polite and friendly to other groups, including if you are passing them or you are being passed

Don't camp up next to another group's transition or lunch spot. If there's space say hello, nice day, thanks for setting the track and move away.

Don't snake their snow having used their skin track.

Similarly conserve some pow for others, have your group ski reasonably tight together lines in areas that will see other traffic.

[mall walker]

Good thread. I would add:

If you are in an area where encountering other groups is common, be friendly and go out of your way to smile, say hello, etc. even if you're "mister hardcore" and you've been skiing this line for 20 years and feel like you own it. Unless you have a deed for the land, it ain't yours, don't be a dick about it.

ASIDE FROM SAFETY CONCERNS, don't bitch about the skintrack. Obviously say something if the travel route is unsafe. But otherwise, unless you're breaking trail, don't whine if it's too steep / not steep enough / you suck at kickturns because you're hauling clown shoes with metal frame bindings / whatever else.

Keep tabs on how your group is feeling, if anyone's getting cold, etc. and act accordingly (ie make faster transitions and fewer stops if someone is getting cold, consider adjusting travel or aborting an objective if someone is not feeling physically well, etc)

[adrenalated]

Good thread, and I absolutely agree with almost everything in your OP, but am going to take issue with or add to a couple things.

- When you are stopped, use the time productively. You should generally be doing one or more of several things: getting warm, eating, hydrating, transitioning, discussing route selection/wx/avy conditions, etc. Basically, don't chat and goof off while other people wait for you. It might sound harsh, but it sucks to wait for people to catch up, listen to them chat about random topics while everyone transitions, and then have to wait for them while they decide that now they want some food or water, and then finally transition.

Discussion about route selection/wx/avy conditions needs to happen when the whole group is present. If the faster people have this discussion, and make a decision while waiting for the slower people to catch up, then you have eliminated the slow person's voice from the decision making process. Even if you don't think you've come to a firm decision and ask the slower person, they don't get the benefit of being a part of the discussion and are voicing their opinion without context, or to people that already have a fairly good idea of what they want to do (which makes them less receptive).

- If you invite the slowest person, it is your responsibility to babysit them. Do not invite the slowest or most inexperienced person, and then skin ahead and ignore them while they struggle. If it gets really bad, you must being willing to break from the main group to buddy with that person on a mellower/shorter/safer objective while the rest of the group continues to the main objective. Generally, avoid inviting people you've never skied with before on serious outings with your more experienced partners.

No. If you invite the slowest/weakest person it is your responsibility to have a candid discussion with the rest of the group before you start touring about the person's abilities. Once you have agreed to travel as a group, you travel as a group. The time to split into different groups is at the trailhead, not out in the field.

[Banh Mi]

Good thread for me. I’m learning a lot.

As a BC noob, I’m doing my best to get into shape now, not only so I can keep up, but so if an Emergency situation happens, I will be more alert and clearer thinking.


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[auvgeek]

Depending on the situation, I think it’s totally reasonable to split the group in the field. Mellow spring touring when you’re not carrying avy gear, for example. No need to penalize people who are comfortable moving solo in the terrain just because a person they’ve potentially never met can’t keep up to summit in time or wants to bail.

[3PinGrin]

Don't piss on the skin track.

[BFD]

you are wrong on this. always know where everyone in your group is at all times. if you come together you should stay together.

Depending on the situation, I think it’s totally reasonable to split the group in the field. Mellow spring touring when you’re not carrying avy gear, for example. No need to penalize people who are comfortable moving solo in the terrain just because a person they’ve potentially never met can’t keep up to summit in time or wants to bail.

[detuned]

great thread!

as a BC noob this is all great information and I truly appreciate everyone's input - keep it coming!

I know everybody has varying opinions on every subject known to humans and BC etiquette certainly has its nuances, that said I think the most important aspect of this thread everyone should be aware of is also how I like to live - safety first, always...period

serious tragedies rarely if ever happen because of one major mistake - they occur when a series of easily avoidable mistakes occur over a given period of time.

everything i've read in this thread especially the safety topics fall into this category, by all means take your time, think about your actions, respect others, and most importantly live to tour again

[I've seen black diamonds!]

you are wrong on this. always know where everyone in your group is at all times. if you come together you should stay together.

Why? How does a group of 4 becoming 2 groups of 2 increase risk? I can imagine scenarios where splitting up would be bad, but plenty of others where it would be perfectly fine, maybe even safer.

[TahoeJ]

I like it. Been guilty of this one before for sure.

Me too. And it wasn't until I was the fast guy on the other side of it that I realized to STFU. Like, I knew I was going to be faster when we made plans - it's all good. And honestly, sometimes it's nice to just have a mellower pace and enjoy it. Fresh legs for the descent.

[jesski]

you are wrong on this. always know where everyone in your group is at all times. if you come together you should stay together.

I think maybe this and adrenalated's comments are missing the intent of what auvgeek put together here, and while I agree with the spirit of what you are saying, your comment strikes me as very black and white and frankly a bit academic. There are always reasonable exceptions to a rule, including this one.

I think the point is that if you inadvertently invite the slowest person, someone with a personal issue, or someone who announces midway through the day that they "need to be back in the city at 5pm for a BBQ," it is your responsibility as the person who invited said "new to the group" individual to make the required sacrifices to ensure that problem person has someone to go back to the TH safely with, etc....because it becomes a problem for the WHOLE group and you should contribute to the solution for the WHOLE group by being a volunteer to cut the day short etc.

The point auvgeek is trying to make is that it's not cool if we show up to meet you to go touring and you bring your one-night stand from the night before who lies about her ability, and then you take off to break trail, don't babysit said one-night stand, and she never sees you again for the rest of the day... so one of us feels bad for the one-night stand, takes it slow/easy with them, while you, essentially, force a group split where someone else (not you) has to babysit. That's the extreme case where you are causing a safety issue, in part by splitting the group.

It's obviously ideal to never split up a group, and I don't think auvgeek is saying, carte blanche, "it's cool to split up the group if someone is slower."

But this idea that splitting a group never happens ever under any circumstances is a pretty idealistic/ academic way of looking at things, and the reality is that things happen in the BC-- espeically with a group size of 4-6 people (which again, like babybear says, is not ideal)-- and it sometimes becomes safer for 2 people to do the day's intended objective while 2 people "take it easy" and do a different objective or pace.

Situations like going to camp muir for exercise or a day of short pow laps in a highly trafficked area come to mind.

If there are 6 people skinning to muir on a corn snow day, no one is carrying avi gear, and 5 of the people know each other, know how long it takes them to get to muir, and are reasonably fast etc and the sixth person is a last-minute invite, who turns out to be 2x as slow as everyone else, it's reasonable to expect the person who invited the slowpoke to hang back with them (especially if they drove separately) and early on in the day make the choice to split into two groups, of 4 and 2. I have seen this happen countless times in a way that is perfectly reasonable. Auvgeek is making the point that if you are the person who invited the slowpoke, don't allow someone else to be the slowpoke's babysitter just because you'd rather not wait. If you invited the person without consulting the group, they are your responsiblity-- don't make it awkward where your friends feel compelled to babysit so you can break your 2:00 mark for skinning to muir, today.

Guide services routinely break large groups apart based on ability, and if you've taken an avi class, I'm sure you've seen this happen. It can be done without it being a big deal and in a way where everyone still stays safe and has a good time. Sometimes, even when guiding, we don't plan to break groups apart further until we get an hour or two into the field. That's okay.

The idea that everyone's ability level is fully and accurately portrayed at the TH every. single. time. is frankly a little academic -- and while that would be nice-- that's sometimes not how it shakes out.

Likewise, even if everyone is honest about thier ability, there is always that one time someone blows a rivet on a boot in a way that they don't feel comfortable with the repair or no one's repair kit has anything that works... it's not necessary to end the entire group's day early just because one person needs to turn around. Usually there is a volunteer to turn around with the broken boot person. Don't invite the broken boot person and expect your friends to turn around with them instead of you. Just don't be that guy that always gets to go and have fun while someone else has to be the babysitter for your last-minute invites.

It's good to have safety rituals (transciever check, discussing objectives, touring with the same 2 people always, agreeing to a pace, turn-around point, or turn-around time, etc.) and I'm all for the rule of "stick together as a group," as well as "disclose your ability level accurately at the TH," but in order to never be surprised about a partner's pace, ability level, etc one must never have new touring partners. You can be pretty fast with your friends and then go to meet new people and tell them "I can usually keep up and I like to break trail," but as it turns out the people you met up with are WAY faster than you and you are sucking air just to see them leave the F-you stop. You never know the first time you get out with someone.

Honestly, the biggest rule here, I think, is try not to invite new people to the group without knowing something about their ability level first.

If you want to get out a lot, you need to meet people and skin with them... and often when you're doing that for the first time, it's (ideally) a low-risk enough situation that it's okay for your party to be slightly larger, and it's okay to break into two groups.

[eagleskier]

Lots of useful information in this thread. One of the common themes that keeps resurfacing is the dynamic of the "new invite". A couple of strategies that I use here is to use shorter, close-to-home tours to check out newcomers. I've had great success with this approach. Secondly, the group that I hit the backcountry with is very open and transparent when someone is bringing in a newcomer. We discuss this well before we head out for the trail head and we know that it's not cool to deal with "surprises" when we are headed somewhere that "counts".

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[snoqpass]

Why? How does a group of 4 becoming 2 groups of 2 increase risk? I can imagine scenarios where splitting up would be bad, but plenty of others where it would be perfectly fine, maybe even safer.

“Never leave your wingman “?