Crystal Mountain Becomes Alterra

[The AD]

Vail, Inc. has been around and traded publicly since 1997. By comparison, Amazon was founded in 1994. So Vail is just as entrenched as other companies that dominate our lives. I don't see Vail, or Alterra, going away in our lifetime. Alterra is not some insolvent mom and pop. They own 16 ski resorts (Vail owns 41). If anything, I see Vail and Alterra's market share increasing through the years rather than going down. It's like any other industry, which is increasingly dominated by just a few entities.

I don't think either Vail or Alterra are going away, but that doesn't mean Alterra will continue to own Crystal. But I see no reason to think they won't other than just the constant churn we've seen over the last decade or so. Who knows? Maybe Vail and Alterra will merge (ugh)?

[Stairmaster]

Condolences to his family and fuck cancer.

That said, I will always remember John as a sell out.

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[BaseFloopy]

I didn't know JK personally and I'm not an apologist but here are a few facts:

1. Boyne basically rescued crustal from bankruptcy in the 90s.
2. JK stated in an article he thought Vail's purchase of Stevens Pass put crustal at a significant competitive disadvantage.
3. The summer before JK sold, the Norse Peak fire was probably going to do some significant damage, until the wind shifted at the last hour.

I personally disagree with #2 but I can't blame the guy for reassessing his priorities.

RIP John and thank you.

[Toadman]

Sounds like people need to boycott Crystal. Who's with me!?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q7vtWB4owdE

[altasnob]

The summer before JK sold, the Norse Peak fire was probably going to do some significant damage, until the wind shifted at the last hour.

Great, now that East Peak has mostly burned, you don't have to worry about the base area burning for a long, long time. The burn zone is one giant natural fire wall. Even more the reason he should have kept it.

I don't have any problem with Kircher selling. I just have a problem with him selling to Alterra. He could have put it out on the market and allowed a conglomerate of locals have the chance at it. There's lots of rich people in the Seattle area. Someone may have been interested.

[altasnob]

Sounds like people need to boycott Crystal. Who's with me!?

I'll never boycot Crystal, no matter what. I have no choice. It would be like you refusing to ski at Bachelor. Then what's the point of living in Bend.

[BaseFloopy]

Great, now that East Peak has mostly burned, you don't have to worry about the base area burning for a long, long time. The burn zone is one giant natural fire wall. Even more the reason he should have kept it.

I don't have any problem with Kircher selling. I just have a problem with him selling to Alterra. He could have put it out on the market and allowed a conglomerate of locals have the chance at it. There's lots of rich people in the Seattle area. Someone may have been interested.

It's hard to know where the next fire will start and which way the winds will be blowing...

Look, I dislike Alterra (and Vail) as much as anyone but who knows if group of rich Seattleites would do any better. I'm guessing he thought Alterra would have the best chance of building out the master plan (which is of course debatable).

[Ørion]

He was pretty public about his motivation to sell. Might be just a story they're telling but its been a consistent one at least.

John talking about the decision contemporaneously:
https://www.rei.com/blog/snowsports/...ystal-mountain

Stephen talking about it last year:
https://pca.st/episode/cc53d305-8e60...b-2cd05b0d58c9

[altasnob]

I'm guessing he thought Alterra would have the best chance of building out the master plan (which is of course debatable).

I guess that's my biggest complaint with Kircher. I don't agree with all of the master development plan. Kircher wanted to sell to an owner that would follow his grand plan. A local ownership group probably wouldn't have had such grand plans, or had the capital to follow those plans.

I'm ok with a Kelly's Gap lift and a chairlift from B lot to the base. I don't want a Bullion Basin, or East Peak chair. I am not thrilled with a base to Cambell Basin lift, and the glamping and summer activities in Cambell Basin. I am not crazy about the 100 room hotel but nothing more. I don't like the areiel adventure course and the general carnival atmosphere they want in the summer.

Basically, I want Crystal to stay a PNW resort. Similar to Baker, White Pass, Snoqualmie, and Mission Ridge. And when people say things change. No they don't, at least when it comes to National Forests, National Parks, and ski areas operating on these public lands. The great thing about PNW skiing is that it mostly hasn't changed. We don't have much (or any lodging) at our ski areas. We don't have shopping malls at the base. That's what I like about it here.

[BaseFloopy]

I generally agree with all of that ^^ and so do most people I chat with on random chairlift rides etc.
Unfortunately, Alterra knows they've found a diamond in the rough and will do their best to turn it into Wally World, irrespective of what the general population wants.

You probably already know this, but the latest I heard was that the existing gondola will be rerouted to Campbell Basin, and a new, larger gondola (that is better able to handle higher winds) will use the current alignment up to the summit. Timeline is supposedly over the next 5 years or so and I don't remember if this is before/after any Kelly's Gap chair, hotel, etc.

[MagnificentUnicorn]

And of those high speed quads, one was broken down all of last season and two this year are running at 2/3 speed because the main drive motors died when they fired it up at start of season.

And one of those two chairs was down completely for a week last month after blowing hydraulic fluid all over a bunch of patrons and the surrounding snow. Which chair serves about 1/3 of the total acreage

Legitimate destination resorts don’t have those kind of repeated failures.

They have lodging too


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[Bunion 2020]

Basically, I want Crystal to stay a PNW resort.

Boo fucking hoo. The folks in SLC said the same things about LCC & BCC, we said the same thing about Big Sky, no doubt the locals said the same things about Ajax and Aspen Highlands.

Life happens and ain't no way in hell Crystal was ever going to remain a MomNpop ski area.

[Buster Highmen]

There's no hope against the corporate overlords.
And obviously so many people get confused between kneeling down and bending over.

[Bunion 2020]

They also seem to confuse business with philanthropy.

[Buster Highmen]

Crustal is on USFS land. Public land.
But following some thinking here, let the Pebble Mine happen.

It's only business.

I mean it's great sport to carom between ridiculous extremes obscuring the more nuanced constructs, but that's what we do, right?

[Djongo Unchained]

I mean it's great sport to carom between ridiculous extremes obscuring the more nuanced constructs, but that's what we do, right?

Like a murder of Magoos...

[Bunion 2020]

No, it is not that at all. This ground has been plowed many times and still nothing productive grows.

So it goes. Oh and sounds like Pebble Mine is dead, at least for now.

[altasnob]

Boo fucking hoo. The folks in SLC said the same things about LCC & BCC, we said the same thing about Big Sky, no doubt the locals said the same things about Ajax and Aspen Highlands.

The PNW is different. Unlike resorts in the Rockies, our ski areas are surrounded by National Forests with very little private land. Our ski resorts aren't at old mining towns, but are in the middle of the woods at the end of narrow dead end roads. The snow is inconsistent. They are not conducive to big, destination, development.

[Bunion 2020]

The PNW is different. Unlike resorts in the Rockies, our ski areas are surrounded by National Forests with very little private land. Our ski resorts aren't at old mining towns, but are in the middle of the woods at the end of narrow dead end roads. The snow is inconsistent. They are not conducive to big, destination, development.

Good one dude.

[jackattack]

They are not conducive to big, destination, development.

Tent cities are more our style.

[Buster Highmen]

No, it is not that at all. This ground has been plowed many times and still nothing productive grows.

So it goes. Oh and sounds like Pebble Mine is dead, at least for now.

I know I'm not so bright, but those two statements seem at odds with each other.

Carry On!

[The AD]

The PNW is different. Unlike resorts in the Rockies, our ski areas are surrounded by National Forests with very little private land. Our ski resorts aren't at old mining towns, but are in the middle of the woods at the end of narrow dead end roads. The snow is inconsistent. They are not conducive to big, destination, development.

You mean sort of like LCC, BCC, and Big Sky? Oh....

I agree there are differences, but not sure those differences are enough.

[altasnob]

You mean sort of like LCC, BCC, and Big Sky? Oh....

I agree there are differences, but not sure those differences are enough.

You're really arguing that Big Sky is just like Crystal? Big Sky is surrounded by private land, roads, homes, and development. There is a 100% private ski area right next door (Yellowstone Club). I believe a large part of the skiiable acres of Big Sky is on private property, not Forest Service land. Crystal is nearly completely surrounded by wilderness, which includes a National Park. Big Sky has some wilderness nearby, but it does not come right up to the ski area boundary as it does at Crystal. Big Sky is a much closer comparison to Deer Valley, with homes sprawling endlessly up the hillside, than Crystal. Even if Bill Gates bought Crystal tomorrow and wanted to turn it into Big Sky, he couldn't, because Crystal is on 100% Forest Service land. There are specks of private land but they are all owned by other entities and the total amount of private land is very small. Other ski areas in the PNW, have no private land of any kind (like Bachelor and Meadows).

The reason Rockies ski areas are shopping malls for the masses, and PNW resorts are core is because back in the 1800s, mining was much bigger in the Rockies than in the Cascades. There was mining in the Cascades but the dense vegetation made it harder for prospectors to identify valuable ore. These mining claims in the Rockies became private property and today, are now McMansions and ski areas on private land. We don't (and can't) have that in the PNW. We're also more restrictive on development in blue states like WA and OR than red states like UT, MT, and recently purpled CO. It's no coincident that one of the biggest ski area development plans that got killed by the courts was in WA (Early Winters Ski Area).

Kircher was a rich dude from Michigan trying to turn Crystal into Big Sky. Alterra are corporate dickheads from CO and CA trying to do the same thing. They're out of town developers.

[The AD]

I was talking more about being at the end of narrow, dead end roads.

Also, because the land is public now, does that mean it's going to be public for perpetuity? I'll admit privatizing the land in Washington would probably be a more fraught process than in places like Montana or Utah.

[Bunion 2020]

Big Sky has some wilderness nearby, but it does not come right up to the ski area boundary as it does at Crystal.

Would you just fucking stop spewing bullshit when it is so easy to have a look before you show what an idiot you are.

There is a wilderness boundary and 2 different USFS boundaries that directly abut Big Sky operating boundary.

And saying "some wilderness nearby" is so fucking stupid I don't even know where to begin.

And FWIW at one time a large part of Big Sky was on USFS land and operated under a special use permit. Then there was a land swap and now, yes Big Sky is 100% private land as well as the Y/C.