Crystal Mountain Becomes Alterra

[XavierD]

I expect a significant number of current pass holders to buy the $2k Xtal+Ikon pass. The reality is xtal remains a premium product relative to other WA ski areas, if not on the level of WB/Big Sky/Jackson Hole. $2k was actually really close to the value I discussed with some friends as what it would take to have an significant impact on crowds.
I was surprised only 25% of current pass holders ski more than 7 days on their ikon passes. We could see a very marginal impact on crowds IF the 75% conduct the analysis to figure this out. Crediting the lack of traffic to the bus/parking reservations system is seriously disingenuous given how abysmal the season ended up being.

I still think xtal responded to the criticism incorrectly and should have kept pass policies the same but just added parking costs to everyone. Parking remains the primary issue, not on mountain access. Adding a $500 annual B-F lot parking pass would likely have a higher impact on reducing traffic issues while also being less exclusionary to families trying to raise the next generation of customers.

Who knows, xtal isn’t a short drive from anywhere, so maybe $8/gal gas next winter will be enough to keep people home all on its own.

[Ørion]

I was surprised only 25% of current pass holders ski more than 7 days on their ikon passes. We could see a very marginal impact on crowds IF the 75% conduct the analysis to figure this out.

This stood out to me. We never will know the actuals, but I'm curious how they figured the number. I'd wager they'd get wildly different percentages if they calculated it based off of:

• any IKON pass purchasers with a mailing address in WA
• only Full IKON pass purchasers with a mailing address in WA
• Any IKON pass holder with +1 days at Crystal
• Any IKON pass holders with more than one set of consecutive days at Crystal (maybe capturing OR skiers who make frequent trips?)
• some combination of the above

As they say, statistics never lie, but statisticians do.

[muted reborn]

https://www.stormskiing.com/p/boxed-...ystal-mountain

Author intersperses the article with DeBerry's comments about the pricing change

Interesting to read also about Liftopia, I'm 95% sure the founders were frequent posters here back in the day before forming Liftopia:

“Obviously, there are a lot of rumors circulating about the potential of civil or criminal charges, but I have no direct knowledge of the validity of those. I have heard from other industry individuals that there were lavish and opulent parties being thrown by Liftopia in San Francisco at their offices but I did not receive an invite and so again cannot confirm or deny. This, in my opinion was a very brazen and in-your-face heist with no remorse or fear of reprisal, legal or otherwise. I obviously feel badly for us at West Mountain but also for all of the other ski areas that were taken.” "

[altasnob]

I still think xtal responded to the criticism incorrectly and should have kept pass policies the same but just added parking costs to everyone. Parking remains the primary issue, not on mountain access. Adding a $500 annual B-F lot parking pass would likely have a higher impact on reducing traffic issues while also being less exclusionary to families trying to raise the next generation of customers.

My position on parking is if they are going to charge a fee, they should charge the same fee to everyone, including non-paying backcountry users. And if they are going to offer a discounted yearly parking pass, also offer that to everyone (season pass, Ikon, daily lift ticket, and backcountry). Crystal states the reason they charge for parking is not to make money or cover the cost of plowing, but to deter traffic. So apply it to everyone (not a select group) to deter traffic.

I've done some more reading on this issue and it appears that yes, Crystal can charge for parking, decide how much, and decide who has to pay, but the Forest Service can force Crystal to allow non-paying customers to park. And the Forest Service has the power to make sure the amount Crystal is charging (for parking and everything else) is reasonable. To park at Mt. Hood Meadows, you need an Oregon snow park, which is $4 a day and $25 a season. Crystal is $20-30 a day, but only on weekends, so I wouldn't say it is ridiculous (yet). But like season pass prices, we can expect it will only go up in the coming years. Crystal has normalized paying for parking and I expect other ski areas in Washington to follow. I am concerned Crystal will use parking fees as a way to drive people to their most profitable products (season passes) and to deter users that they don't make as much money off of (backcountry skiers and daily lift tickets).

[dunfree]

This stood out to me. We never will know the actuals, but I'm curious how they figured the number. I'd wager they'd get wildly different percentages if they calculated it based off of:

• any IKON pass purchasers with a mailing address in WA
• only Full IKON pass purchasers with a mailing address in WA
• Any IKON pass holder with +1 days at Crystal
• Any IKON pass holders with more than one set of consecutive days at Crystal (maybe capturing OR skiers who make frequent trips?)
• some combination of the above

As they say, statistics never lie, but statisticians do.

the quote is only 25% of crystal passholders skied more than 7 days in an average season, which I would think has to include pre ikon years, and that number sounds implausible

DeBerry noted, pointing out that only around 25 percent of Crystal’s passholders skied more than seven days in an average season.

3/4 of the customers were losing money on a season pass?

[altasnob]

Crystal uses variable pricing on daily lift tickets but I believe they normally exceed $200 on weekends. The ticket for tomorrow is $184. Ikon Full was $1,099 ($999 early renewal) so it doesn't take many days to make the pass worth it.

[dunfree]

Crystal uses variable pricing on daily lift tickets but I believe they normally exceed $200 on weekends. The ticket for tomorrow is $184. Ikon Full was $1,099 ($999 early renewal) so it doesn't take many days to make the pass worth it.

That’s six days. So, does the number of money losers drop to 50%? If that’s really skiing, why not jack the season pass price? My assumption being that 3/4 of the seasons under alterra have not been “normal”

[XavierD]

My position on parking is if they are going to charge a fee, they should charge the same fee to everyone, including non-paying backcountry users. And if they are going to offer a discounted yearly parking pass, also offer that to everyone (season pass, Ikon, daily lift ticket, and backcountry). Crystal states the reason they charge for parking is not to make money or cover the cost of plowing, but to deter traffic. So apply it to everyone (not a select group) to deter traffic.

I've done some more reading on this issue and it appears that yes, Crystal can charge for parking, decide how much, and decide who has to pay, but the Forest Service can force Crystal to allow non-paying customers to park. And the Forest Service has the power to make sure the amount Crystal is charging (for parking and everything else) is reasonable. To park at Mt. Hood Meadows, you need an Oregon snow park, which is $4 a day and $25 a season. Crystal is $20-30 a day, but only on weekends, so I wouldn't say it is ridiculous (yet). But like season pass prices, we can expect it will only go up in the coming years. Crystal has normalized paying for parking and I expect other ski areas in Washington to follow. I am concerned Crystal will use parking fees as a way to drive people to their most profitable products (season passes) and to deter users that they don't make as much money off of (backcountry skiers and daily lift tickets).

Why wouldn’t they try and push people to towards buying a pass? While backcountry skiers generally have the most entitled outlook on life of anyone they have no inherent right to park in the Crystal lots.

Don’t like it, use your FS pass at the Norse peak trail head.

[altasnob]

From the Seattle Times:

"Adam Sutner, Crystal’s vice president of business development, said the goal of Crystal’s new transportation-management system is to reduce traffic on Highway 410 by 10% and increase the average number of passengers per car by 10%, which combined will reduce by 20% the number of daily cars angling for Crystal’s 3,100 parking spots. So far, he said, it’s working."

Whenever Crystal is asked about parking they say they charge for traffic reduction purposes, not to make income. The same gets said for plans to charge for parking fees at Solitude (Alterra owned) and Alta (both on National Forest lands). The Forest Service allows ski areas to charge for parking but it must be reasonable and it must not exclude users. Why would the Forest Service turn over the public's land to a private company if the private company can use parking to generate massive revenue?

When the Forest Service issued the permit for Crystal, there was no backcountry skiing. There wasn't even much backcountry skiing at Crystal in 2004 when the master plan was approved (2005/06 was my first winter exploring the bc there). Today, it is one of the most popular backcountry areas in the state, and for good reason. The Forest Service has a duty to balance uses and they can't turn over the keys to a private company for exclusive use. The majority of terrain one can access in a day from Crystal's lots is outside of the ski area boundary, and even outside the permit area.

Norse Peak trailhead is used by backcountry skiers. But that tour is difficult and passes through complex avy terrain, so it is not surprising it is not that popular for the masses. Bullion Basin, Cement Basin, Lakes Basin, Morse Creek, and Crystal Lakes are much more popular areas, all accessed from Crystal's parking lots, and are more popular than Norse Peak trailhead for a variety of reasons. The best snow is in Morse Creek as it gets cold Eastern flow, similar to Alpental. Average snowfall increases dramatically as one moves south from Crystal, away from Rainier's rainshadow, to Chinook Pass. The trailhead for National Forest Bullion Basin Trail 1156 and Silver Creek Trail 1192 is at Upper C lot. Crystal cannot prevent non-paying guest from accessing a National Forest trailhead.

And for anyone who thinks this issue isn't important to them because they have a season pass, what happens when passes are $2k, 3k, 4k? Everyone has a point where resort skiing becomes more than they are willing to spend and they look to other options. It is important to keep those other options available.

[ptavv]

I expect a significant number of current pass holders to buy the $2k Xtal+Ikon pass. The reality is xtal remains a premium product relative to other WA ski areas, if not on the level of WB/Big Sky/Jackson Hole. $2k was actually really close to the value I discussed with some friends as what it would take to have an significant impact on crowds.
I was surprised only 25% of current pass holders ski more than 7 days on their ikon passes. We could see a very marginal impact on crowds IF the 75% conduct the analysis to figure this out. Crediting the lack of traffic to the bus/parking reservations system is seriously disingenuous given how abysmal the season ended up being.

I still think xtal responded to the criticism incorrectly and should have kept pass policies the same but just added parking costs to everyone. Parking remains the primary issue, not on mountain access. Adding a $500 annual B-F lot parking pass would likely have a higher impact on reducing traffic issues while also being less exclusionary to families trying to raise the next generation of customers.

Who knows, xtal isn’t a short drive from anywhere, so maybe $8/gal gas next winter will be enough to keep people home all on its own.

I agree with this. I think the fundamental error here is an assessment of what the limiting factors are. It's been clear all year that the limitation is parking… even on the busiest weekends the lift lines have been totally reasonable (in fact, better than I've experienced at almost any marquee regional resort on a busy weekend) and are an order of magnitude better than last year's chair capacity reduction craziness.

I think the worst part of this whole response is that no matter the outcome Crystal will deem this massive price increase to be a success. Whether parking lots are as crowded or less crowded or more crowded, this insanely complex pass and parking fee structure and the reservations will all be looked at as having "fixed" the problem (if parking is less of an issue) or prevented things from getting even worse (if problems continue or worsen). In the mean time they'll have alienated a ton of price-sensitive consumers and burned up quite a lot of community good will.

Truly their only saving grace is that there are no viable alternatives and no way to build some competition.

[diggins1712]

For those of us who are debating the 22/23 pass options, here’s some additional info on the wildcards.



If the new “roots” pass were shareable between two people, I’d be going with that. Since it isn’t, the wildcard seem like the next best thing for a 2 skier household hoping to get 8-10 days in next season. Anyone else in a similar spot?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[altasnob]

I assume the 3 and 5 day wild cards can only only be used mid-week, and non-holidays, at least until mid-March when they start selling the Spring wild cards and Spring unlimited pass (that's how it was this year). If one person is going to ski 8 to 10 day mid-week days, the unlimited mid-week roots pass makes the most sense (pays for itself after 7 days or so). I say "or so" because Crystal uses variable pricing for daily lift tickets. If you want a 2, 3, or 4 day pass that works on weekends (with black outs) then you can get the Ikon Session pass. The 4 day works out to $105 a day plus tax, which is pricey, but still much less than paying for a lift ticket on the weekend.

[Fishskisurf]

Does a session “pass” get you in the door if/when reservations are required?

[diggins1712]

I should’ve clarified my situation a bit more.

My wife and I are planning to ski 5-12ish days during the week between the two of us (5-7 for me, 3-5 for her). We’ve got young kids (5&2.5) in daycare, so it makes skiing together challenging.

My plan for the weekends is to go to White Pass with our kids and ski as a family. During the week, my plan is to have one of us ski on the better condition days while the other takes care of the kids at home.

The wildcards seem to be the least expensive way to accomplish this goal. While I would love to get more days in, it’s tough with 2 kids, 2 work schedules, family visits, vacations, etc.

[altasnob]

All passes will need parking reservations for weekends and holidays. Just like this year, they release the spots on Tuesday at noon and 7 pm. And if you don't carpool with 4, take the bus, or have an unlimited pass, you will have to pay for parking Friday through Sunday.

Ya, if you are only doing 3 to 7 days mid-week the wild card makes sense. And if you blow through your wild card by mid-March they will likely sell the cheaper Spring wild card that works on weekends as well. Or Spring unlimited pass. My wife is stuck with weekends and I bought her 4 day session pass with plans to buy a Spring wild card if she uses her 4 and still wants to ski Crystal weekends.

[cstefanic]

All passes will need parking reservations for weekends and holidays. Just like this year, they release the spots on Tuesday at noon and 7 pm. And if you don't carpool with 4, take the bus, or have an unlimited pass, you will have to pay for parking Friday through Sunday.

Quick correction: parking $$ is included in the price of any season pass, even on weekends.

[altasnob]

The way I read it, only the Anytime Legends Pass includes parking on weekends. Ikon pass (both base and full) will have to pay to park on weekends. And the Midweek Roots Pass will have to pay to park on weekends, including after 3/18/23 when the Roots pass works on weekends.

Crystal hasn't released what qualifies as "weekends" yet for next year. But this year, Friday was a weekend day for paid parking. So if you got the Midweek Roots Pass for next year (like me) and are skiing on Friday, I expect you will have to pay. Pretty lame but this is what I am expecting.

Also lame, Crystal stopped running the bus on April 3rd this year but claims paid parking was in effect until April 17.

Also lame, currently, on Crystal's mountain report page it says this:

"Paid parking is still in effect Friday through Sunday for non-pass holders before 1pm."

So anyone reading this would assume paid parking is still in effect today. But on the page where Crystal announced their Spring bonus skiing it says this:

"Paid parking will not be required. A-Lot parking first come, first serve (A-Lot permits expire April 17th)"

So that's why I say no paid parking now that it is after April 17. Crystal hasn't released all the parking details for next year, probably on purpose, so that they can change it on a whim and do whatever they want without people going to the Attorney General and threatening a class action consumer protection lawsuit like they did this year for bait and switching.

[cstefanic]

Perhaps I'm giving them too much credit, but their "Season Pass" portion of the website includes all forms of Ikon, Legends, Roots, Bullshit passes, and then they specifically use that term and don't single out "Anytime Legends" pass only on any announcement. So I'm thinking that anything other than a day pass is free parking all year, basically just like this year.

[phatty]

Perhaps I'm giving them too much credit, but their "Season Pass" portion of the website includes all forms of Ikon, Legends, Roots, Bullshit passes, and then they specifically use that term and don't single out "Anytime Legends" pass only on any announcement. So I'm thinking that anything other than a day pass is free parking all year, basically just like this year.

That's the way I understood it as well. Anything but day pass has free parking.

[altasnob]

Looking at it again, I think you may be right. So no need to pay for parking, any days, if you have Anytime Legends, Midweek Roots, Ikon Full or Ikon Base. I noticed it doesn't include Ikon Session in that group, so maybe Crystal will make them pay for parking. Although Crystal includes a "Shop for Ikon" link on their season pass page and when you click on that, it has Ikon Session pass. And for this year, Crystal specifically says Ikon Session doesn't have to pay for parking. So I would refuse to pay for parking with an Ikon Session pass as well.

And good to memorialize Crystal's policies by posting screen shots here. I don't trust the bastards and feel they will continue to tweak the rules. Waybackmachine only captures so much on their website.

[altasnob]

Here's a Crystal parking brain teaser:

So I I buy a 5 day Wild Card pass, which is only good on weekdays, do I have to pay for parking on Friday?

What if I buy a Spring Wild Card, which is good on weekdays and weekends, do I have to pay for parking Friday, Saturday, and Sunday?

[AK47bp]

Does Crystal offer the Simply Everything Plus Plan?

https://youtu.be/e4dcwCgv3ME


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[californiagrown]

How quickly everyone forgets that Crystal has backtracked on policies, after announcement or implementation, more than a handful of times the past few years. What they set now as policy has little bearing on what will actually be implemented and for how long come next season.

A public apology admitting the error of their ways, or changing circumstances will be issued, and folks will continue showing up unabated.

[Fishskisurf]

This is getting dizzying figuring out how to ski there....

[oftpiste]

Sadly, Xtal has always known they have a captive audience and have exploited that under all recent ownerships. I wish I felt their BS would actually erode their customer base but it hasn't in the past and I doubt it will now or in the future. The likelihood is that the only ones who will abandon them are the midweek-tailgate-lunch-bring your own beers- crowd (like most of us are), and I suspect they're fine seeing us disappear. It is a shame.

How quickly everyone forgets that Crystal has backtracked on policies, after announcement or implementation, more than a handful of times the past few years. What they set now as policy has little bearing on what will actually be implemented and for how long come next season.

A public apology admitting the error of their ways, or changing circumstances will be issued, and folks will continue showing up unabated.