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  1. #926
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    The point is that during the Master Development Plan (MDP) for the Crystal SUP (which factually is owned by the Crystal Founders, not Alterra), the USFS constantly made a big deal out of the CCC.
    Now the CCC is a squooshy number to begin with, but the basic idea is to try to have an estimate of the number of people that valley can "support".

    The root issue is that Alterra has mismanaged their pass sales and user base to the extent that the CCC has been exceeded by definition.

    Now, obviously not every pass holder is going to come every day.

    At the same time, if the USFS really is concerned about what the CCC represents, then there should be some limiting factor for the number of passes sold locally. As such, your use of your Ikon should be counted in determining what that limiting factor is.

    Alterra is tight lipped about how many passes it has sold locally. The 20k number is a lower estimate used by the Seattle Times.

    The Summit limits seasons passes for good reason. Alterra should consider the same.
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  2. #927
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ørion View Post
    If they limited passes to exactly the CCC (10K-ish) we'd still be in this mess because, at the current carpooling density, Crystal doesn't have enough parking to reach the CCC (my guestimate admittedly, have they released their vehicle capacity limits?).

    If the FS goes to them and asks if they're going over the CCC they can legitimate say they never have that many people on the mountain. Its a parking issue, not a CCC issue.
    I haven't conveyed well enough what the CCC represents, but it is supposed to cover parking and overall use. As above if they sold only the CCC number of passes, it's very unlikely every passholder would show up.

    The basic point is that they're over selling passes and the USFS is focused on the CCC in the SUP, so pass sales should be a function of the CCC, maybe some small multiple, but not completely unregulated.
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  3. #928
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    Crystal Mountain Becomes Alterra

    Quote Originally Posted by Ørion View Post
    If they limited passes to exactly the CCC (10K-ish) we'd still be in this mess because, at the current carpooling density, Crystal doesn't have enough parking to reach the CCC (my guestimate admittedly, have they released their vehicle capacity limits?).

    If the FS goes to them and asks if they're going over the CCC they can legitimate say they never have that many people on the mountain. Its a parking issue, not a CCC issue.
    It’s both. On the weekend when the lot is full, lines become a nightmare. It’s been an issue for a few years now. I can’t even imagine what it would look like if there was more parking added.

    The elephant in the room is the only realistic solution and unfortunately it is a pretty bad one, is to raise the price to a point that demand is reduced. Say $2,000+ season passes and $250 day tickets. But if you do that, skiing becomes even less inclusive than it already is.


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  4. #929
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    No, they just have to limit the total number of passes sold for Crystal. Summit does it as do other hills. The issue with Crystal (and Stevens) is they have mixed local passes with cheap ski travel passes and sell way more now. They are willing to let the local hills suffer to get you to travel to their other destination mountains. The PNW was not exposed to this distortion until Vail and Alterra came and bought 2/3rds of the local hills.

    From a business standpoint it seems to be working. I know a number of folks who moved from buying Summit passes to Epic or Ikon based on where they planned to travel to. They then just ski that hill for their local hill. I'm sure there are plenty like them.

  5. #930
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    Quote Originally Posted by TAFKALVS View Post
    More high(er) elevation snowparks.
    More lifts.
    More parking.
    More restaurant capacity.
    New ski areas.

    Until these things happen, PNW ski areas will continue to be a shitshow. It's a simple issue of being overcapacity with too little infrastructure to support the crowds.
    exactly, demand has eclipsed supply, it did 2 decades ago. Forest Service needs to do prospectus and offer up multiple other locations for low impact ski hills to take the strain off the pitifully few that are in our state. They won't because they are colluding with Vail, Alterra, KSL, etc. to create monopolies. Forest Service is also scared, lazy, clueless, bureaucratic and sold out. This is their fucking job, and they are not doing it, this is our land and forest service is locking it away.

  6. #931
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    Alterra is putting the solution to the overcrowding problem they created at Crystal onto the backs of consumers while reaping all the profits.

    It's weird how in the country that champions supposed individualism we constantly let the powerful overrun the us.
    Merde De Glace On the Freak When Ski
    >>>200 cm Black Bamboo Sidewalled DPS Lotus 120 : Best Skis Ever <<<

  7. #932
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    The USDA Office of the Inspector General (OIG) Whistleblower Line is designed for persons wishing to report fraud, waste or abuse in USDA programs or in agencies/staff offices. We encourage you to file a complaint online by visiting https://www.usda.gov/oig/hotline . Alternatively, you may also reach out to their hotline by calling (800) 424-9121.
    Merde De Glace On the Freak When Ski
    >>>200 cm Black Bamboo Sidewalled DPS Lotus 120 : Best Skis Ever <<<

  8. #933
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    I don't think limiting passes, or jacking up pass and ticket prices will work. I don't really enjoy ski areas and much prefer to tour but have bought a pass in recent seasons because with young kids, my time is limited. I like Crystal because of the hike to backcountry like skiing. But in reality, I get almost as many runs exclusively hiking for turns as I do riding up lifts to hike the King. If passes/tickets were any more expensive, or passes limited and parking reserved, it may push me back into exclusive hike for turns. And with backcountry skiing popularity exploding, there are a lot of people like me. In the coming years, I see the amount of non-paying customers at Crystal increasing dramatically. Crystal can't do anything about this (yes, they charge for parking but I foresee a lawsuit coming if they get too carried away with that idea).

    So again, I like the parking lots the size they are and people having to get up early to ski weekends (or just show up at 1 pm, it's empty then). It's the most equitable solution I see, even though it isn't really a solution at all. I know Crystal has grand plans to increase parking capacity but I will believe it when I see it. The geography does not support it and environmentalist will be ready with the lawsuits insuring the parking lot run offs are compliant with the various environmental laws (as they have previously; this is rumored as to why Kircher sold to Alterra). One area Crystal could easily increase parking capacity is to get rid of B lot RVers. They take up a massive amount of space compared to day trippers. But you'll really see some pissed off long term locals if they do that.

  9. #934
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    Is there any room for more parking along 410 at the turn off to the boulevard? No one wants to take a bus from Enumclaw but from the turn off wouldn’t be bad.

  10. #935
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    Quote Originally Posted by PNW_Skier206 View Post
    I have had a series of exchanges with Frank. He has confirmed the reason for the reservation system is to allow families the ability to come up at 10am. He didn’t directly say it but I’m guessing a number of rich families complained that they weren’t able to get a Sat/Sunday spot because they left Seattle at 730.

    The hilarious thing is I’m not even sure this solves the issue they intend to. Let’s say I am unable to get a weekend reservation on a particular day. I’m just going to drive up and ski in the backcountry around Crystal and still use their parking lot. So I can’t use my pass but I’m still taking up a parking spot.


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    Really? That's pretty weak on both parties. It shows a complete lack of backbone to stand up to the Chads and Karens of the skiing world, and it's soft on the skiing parents. The world doesn't revolve around these entitled tech-wealthy skiers who go whining to the ski area management.

    As said in this thread, if you want to go skiing in the PNWet these days, you must get up early to get a spot. Period. This was a fact of skiing life growing up. I have vivid memories of loading up our Suburban or minivan - in the dark - to make the two-hour drive to Meadows or Timberline. And I've been reminded of this fact many times after moving back. Montana spoiled me and I've been forced to change my ways.

    This should be the case for everyone. Them's the breaks.

    Quote Originally Posted by altasnob View Post
    I don't think limiting passes, or jacking up pass and ticket prices will work. I don't really enjoy ski areas and much prefer to tour but have bought a pass in recent seasons because with young kids, my time is limited. I like Crystal because of the hike to backcountry like skiing. But in reality, I get almost as many runs exclusively hiking for turns as I do riding up lifts to hike the King. If passes/tickets were any more expensive, or passes limited and parking reserved, it may push me back into exclusive hike for turns. And with backcountry skiing popularity exploding, there are a lot of people like me. In the coming years, I see the amount of non-paying customers at Crystal increasing dramatically. Crystal can't do anything about this (yes, they charge for parking but I foresee a lawsuit coming if they get too carried away with that idea).

    So again, I like the parking lots the size they are and people having to get up early to ski weekends (or just show up at 1 pm, it's empty then). It's the most equitable solution I see, even though it isn't really a solution at all. I know Crystal has grand plans to increase parking capacity but I will believe it when I see it. The geography does not support it and environmentalist will be ready with the lawsuits insuring the parking lot run offs are compliant with the various environmental laws (as they have previously; this is rumored as to why Kircher sold to Alterra). One area Crystal could easily increase parking capacity is to get rid of B lot RVers. They take up a massive amount of space compared to day trippers. But you'll really see some pissed off long term locals if they do that.
    What you illustrate here is also a huge problem; no one wins. The ski area wants to expand? Lawsuits by environmentalists.
    New ski areas introduced? Yet more enviro lawsuits.
    More backcountry skier using Crystal lots? More angry patrons and more environmentalists up in arms about increased use in the backcountry.

    I don't know if there's a way to make all parties happy?

  11. #936
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buster Highmen View Post
    The point is that during the Master Development Plan (MDP) for the Crystal SUP (which factually is owned by the Crystal Founders, not Alterra), the USFS constantly made a big deal out of the CCC.
    Now the CCC is a squooshy number to begin with, but the basic idea is to try to have an estimate of the number of people that valley can "support".

    The root issue is that Alterra has mismanaged their pass sales and user base to the extent that the CCC has been exceeded by definition.

    Now, obviously not every pass holder is going to come every day.

    At the same time, if the USFS really is concerned about what the CCC represents, then there should be some limiting factor for the number of passes sold locally. As such, your use of your Ikon should be counted in determining what that limiting factor is.

    Alterra is tight lipped about how many passes it has sold locally. The 20k number is a lower estimate used by the Seattle Times.

    The Summit limits seasons passes for good reason. Alterra should consider the same.
    How would the pass sales work? First come first served? I agree, greedy Altera sold passes above and beyond what the mountain infrastructure can handle? Do you double, or triple the pass price to try and tamp down demand? Thus Alterra still makes out for fewer sales but at a much higher price?
    "We don't beat the reaper by living longer, we beat the reaper by living well and living fully." - Randy Pausch

  12. #937
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    The train wreck mass consolidation within the ski industry has wrought.
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  13. #938
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    This is the thing, I was at Crystal opening day and watched a bunch of (people I judgmentally view as) gapers walk up and buy IKON passes at the window. To me this shouldn't have been possible, but how would it change? IKON doesn't want to quit selling passes. Maybe there could be a date at which it no longer gets you full access to Crystal, but that seems like it would be a completely different arrangement than this year.
    that's all i can think of, but i'm sure there's something else...

  14. #939
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toadman View Post
    How would the pass sales work? First come first served? I agree, greedy Altera sold passes above and beyond what the mountain infrastructure can handle? Do you double, or triple the pass price to try and tamp down demand? Thus Alterra still makes out for fewer sales but at a much higher price?
    One thought is to have a lottery for seasons passes that are valid for the holder on that day, like a "gold pass" that some places like Solitude offer to shops, shared among users.

    These passes could be shared among users, limit use of resources and don't make the customers bear the financial burden.

    Or just limit the same pass mechanism via date deadline or lottery.

    The consumer is getting the worst end of the stick now via gross misrepresentation of the "unlimited" pass. Obviously Ikon want s to screw the consumer, but hopefully between the USFS and consumer protection laws in WA, there's some leverage.
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  15. #940
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ørion View Post
    (snip) have they released their vehicle capacity limits?
    To answer my own question, in Episode 58 of the Storm Skiing podcast Deberry talks about the logistics of parking "3000 vehicles." Obviously a rounded number, and doesn't factor in the remote bus lot, but it means carpooling numbers would likely need to average 3+ per vehicle to approach the CCC

  16. #941
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    Quote Originally Posted by counterfeitfake View Post
    This is the thing, I was at Crystal opening day and watched a bunch of (people I judgmentally view as) gapers walk up and buy IKON passes at the window. To me this shouldn't have been possible, but how would it change? IKON doesn't want to quit selling passes. Maybe there could be a date at which it no longer gets you full access to Crystal, but that seems like it would be a completely different arrangement than this year.
    Most passes, Ikon included, usually have a stop-sale date. It's usually Thanksgiving or the week leading up to Christmas. Mountain Collective has typically had a capacity and once met, passes cease sale. Such a model is counter to profits, generally. That doesn't seem to be the Epic/Ikon way.

  17. #942
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    Quote Originally Posted by thejongiest View Post
    Is there any room for more parking along 410 at the turn off to the boulevard? No one wants to take a bus from Enumclaw but from the turn off wouldn’t be bad.
    Not really.

    It's a very difficult area to do anything with.

    There is clear flat space at Ranger Creek but it's a single-lane bridge that wouldn't work well with shuttle and parking traffic going in opposite directions... and would require existing traffic to turn left into the downhill traffic stream.

    That area of the river is currently part of a multi year/agency enviro study that would stop any development nearby for a decade or more, even if ultimately allowed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Downbound Train View Post
    And there will come a day when our ancestors look back...........

  18. #943
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    My personal fantasy:

    1. Add lifts in silver basin, bullion basin, kellys gap
    2. Add a train from Enumclaw (hogwarts express style)
    3. Alterra folds and sells Crystal

  19. #944
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    I can't read all this without seething as most of you are. Especially in light of frank's apparent dismissiveness of people's concerns. What a fuckwit. I hope he's following this thread. Frank, you are a fuckwit. FUCK YOU. YOU SUCK. I hope the AG's office strings you up by your little tiny pencil dick.

    I used to love that mountain, even when things were not as well sorted as I'd wished they were. Not so much any more. Which I'm sure is just fine with pencil dick. FUCK YOU.
    Quote Originally Posted by Foggy_Goggles View Post
    If I lived in WA, Oft would be my realtor. Seriously.

  20. #945
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    Quote Originally Posted by oftpiste View Post
    I can't read all this without seething as most of you are. Especially in light of frank's apparent dismissiveness of people's concerns. What a fuckwit. I hope he's following this thread. Frank, you are a fuckwit. FUCK YOU. YOU SUCK. I hope the AG's office strings you up by your little tiny pencil dick.

    I used to love that mountain, even when things were not as well sorted as I'd wished they were. Not so much any more. Which I'm sure is just fine with pencil dick. FUCK YOU.
    Well said oft.

    Exhibit 1
    Quote Originally Posted by Downbound Train View Post
    And there will come a day when our ancestors look back...........

  21. #946
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    The USDA Office of the Inspector General (OIG) Whistleblower Line is designed for persons wishing to report fraud, waste or abuse in USDA programs or in agencies/staff offices. We encourage you to file a complaint online by visiting https://www.usda.gov/oig/hotline . Alternatively, you may also reach out to their hotline by calling (800) 424-9121.

    Link the WA AG into this.
    Alterra must be awfully sure that they're on the side of right legally. WE have no real recourse other than to complain to the USFS, the USDA and the WA AG. I did take the time to write my congressional rep as well.
    Merde De Glace On the Freak When Ski
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  22. #947
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    Quote Originally Posted by oftpiste View Post
    I can't read all this without seething as most of you are. Especially in light of frank's apparent dismissiveness of people's concerns. What a fuckwit. I hope he's following this thread. Frank, you are a fuckwit. FUCK YOU. YOU SUCK. I hope the AG's office strings you up by your little tiny pencil dick.

    I used to love that mountain, even when things were not as well sorted as I'd wished they were. Not so much any more. Which I'm sure is just fine with pencil dick. FUCK YOU.
    Here here. When the email dropped, I had to give it a second read as I was just off some amazing (if crowded) days at Mammoth. Once I understood what was sent, the red mist descended.

    The irony is that Mammoth, also part of the Alterra org, was absolutely choked with skiers, tourists, and beaters from the greater LA Basin. So much so that the access road down from Main lodge was backed up nearly two hours to go four miles. But you know what; there was no such email from them, requiring reservations.

    Quote Originally Posted by Buster Highmen View Post
    The USDA Office of the Inspector General (OIG) Whistleblower Line is designed for persons wishing to report fraud, waste or abuse in USDA programs or in agencies/staff offices. We encourage you to file a complaint online by visiting https://www.usda.gov/oig/hotline . Alternatively, you may also reach out to their hotline by calling (800) 424-9121.

    Link the WA AG into this.
    Alterra must be awfully sure that they're on the side of right legally. WE have no real recourse other than to complain to the USFS, the USDA and the WA AG. I did take the time to write my congressional rep as well.
    Great idea on the congressional rep. I'll do the same.

  23. #948
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    I hear that they're scrapping reservations, now going to parking reservations being required with exception of A lot permit holders.

    Edit: it's on their site now.

    https://www.crystalmountainresort.co...he-way-forward
    Quote Originally Posted by Downbound Train View Post
    And there will come a day when our ancestors look back...........

  24. #949
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    That makes more sense to me.

    They're still guilty of overselling available "seats" and blowing out the CCC.
    Merde De Glace On the Freak When Ski
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  25. #950
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buster Highmen View Post
    That makes more sense to me.

    They're still guilty of overselling available "seats" and blowing out the CCC.
    Yep.

    And yep.

    Keep complaining folks.

    Hopefully Frank is getting hauled over the coals by Alterra for this clusterfuck PR disaster.
    Quote Originally Posted by Downbound Train View Post
    And there will come a day when our ancestors look back...........

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