Crystal Mountain Becomes Alterra

[Bandit Man]

It’s a business and last season at Crystal reinforced the viability of the model to Alterra. You’re never getting that Crystal of yesteryear back and looking at the development plan, it’s only going to get worse and more expensive.

And this thread will continue to be a safe place to bitch about it.

[Fishskisurf]

Then why doesn't Baker sell to Vail? Why doesn't White Pass sell to Alterra?

Oregon, Idaho, Montana, and Wyoming are all devoid of Alterra and Vail owned resorts. It's not inevitable that every ski area is going to be gobbled up by these corporate bohemeths. You don't have to run Crystal as a charity but you also don't have to sell to Alterra to make money at Crystal.

The Vail/Alterra owned resorts in the West are all centered in CO, UT, CA, and Whistler. These are the destination resorts in the West and it makes sense for corporate entities to gobble these up and run them like Amazon, extracting every available cent from the paying public. But why do these corporate overlords need to infiltrate our rainy little corner of the skiing world? We're not destination resorts. They just want to squeeze our balls.

Buying Crystal was very obvious for Alterra...at first it was for access to the wealthy Puget Sound skiers wallet who would take the Ikon pass and hit the road to stay and spend at their other resorts since WA is devoid of any significant ski town/slopeside lodging.
As BanditMan noted, the crowding and popularity of Crystal of the last 3-4 years then proved to Alterra it could develop into a "resort". Let's start the guesses for what a nightly weekend rate will be during peak ski season, $500+ easily. The Gondola opens up summer tourism $$$ and its within 2 hours of Seattle proper...White Pass nor Baker tap into the well that is the wealthy seattle/eastside population that Crystal/Stevens attract, and I'm not sure if they have enough lifts/infrastructure/development-ability to fit Alterra's profile....

Come to think of it, Vail nor Alterra have really snapped up much in the last year or two?

I'd love nothing more than Crystal to be returned to local / non Alterra ownership (would love the Bogus Basin model but that's a pipe dream). John did sell it quickly after buying it himself and I think he did mention upon buying it he wanted to keep it local, but I'm sure the $$ was beyond good and these are businesses facing a grim outlook due to climate change.

[altasnob]

I You’re never getting that Crystal of yesteryear back and looking at the development plan, it’s only going to get worse and more expensive.

I completely agree. Have you seen Alterra's plans for Palisades in California? Rip out all the parking to build hotel, condo, timeshares, along with a theme park and roller coaster. They don't want people day tripping to these ski areas. They want people flying in for a week vacation there. Alterra will try to do the same at Crystal. Thanks John!

[altasnob]

John did sell it quickly after buying it himself

He bought it from his Dad. Is that really buying it?

Alterra and Vail would love to buy all these ski areas but they can't if the current owners won't sell.

[phatty]

Oregon, Idaho, Montana, and Wyoming are all devoid of Alterra and Vail owned resorts.

Are PWDR Corp or Boyne really that much different? Bachelor and Big Sky are not operated much differently (though Bachelor has no lodging). Sun Valley feels about the same as a Vail/ Alterra resort. The MBA-ification of skiing sucks, but we're never getting the old ways back.

Pretty sure people complain about any ski hill owner unless it's community owned, but maybe even still then. I never met JK but I respected that he was out doing the work on the front lines and it didn't seem like it was just a show.

[altasnob]

Bacherlor, Big Sky, and Sun Valley are all legitimate destination resorts. Crystal and Stevens are not, and never will be no matter how hard Alterra and Vail tries (they lack the expansive terrain).

Crystal is 4 high speed quads, a gondola, and is 2,600 skiable acres (half of which you have to hike to get to).

Bachelor has 8 high speed quads and 4,323 acres.

Big Sky is has 8 high speeds, a tram, and 5,850 acres

[Fishskisurf]

Bacherlor, Big Sky, and Sun Valley are all legitimate destination resorts. Crystal and Stevens are not, and never will be no matter how hard Alterra and Vail tries (they lack the expansive terrain).

Crystal is 4 high speed quads, a gondola, and is 2,600 skiable acres (half of which you have to hike to get to).

Bachelor has 8 high speed quads and 4,323 acres.

Big Sky is has 8 high speeds, a tram, and 5,850 acres

What are you arguing Alta? That it doesn't make sense for Alterra / Vail to have ownership in the PNW?
Vail/Alterra each tapping into ownership of Seattle serving ski hills was a no brainer for them to get to their wallets.
3mil+ people in the greater Puget Sound area and median income in much of the area is tops in the nation. Where do you think they ski on vacation? Big Sky, Bachelor, Sun Valley, Whistler etc.

On the plus side, there were hardly any lines this weekend and no blvd crawl all while conditions were decent to good....

[altasnob]

What are you arguing Alta? That it doesn't make sense for Alterra / Vail to have ownership in the PNW?

I totally understand why Alterra and Vail each desperately wanted to acquire a Seattle area ski resort. There's 4 million people in Seattle metro, which is expected to climb to 6 million by 2050. It's also one of the wealthiest regions on planet earth. But our ski areas are very small in size and there is no realistic way to expand or build new ski areas. We are stuck with what we have. And even though our small day-trippin ski areas don't fit the destination ski area mold preferred by Alterra and Vail, they wanted the Seattle purchase so we are all stuck buying increasingly expensive Ikon and Epic passes.

It's like the Costco chicken. Costco loses a massive amount of money on their $5 rotiserie chickens but they more than make up for it because it brings people in the door. Alterra and Vail want to capture the Seattle market so they fly to other destinations, along with their wallets.

And I blame John Kircher for this because he chose to sell to Alterra rather than try to find a local ownership group. He didn't have to sell to Alterra, but he chose to. To me, it really is no different than Howard Shultz selling the Sonics to Clay Bennet, a business man from Oklahoma. Shultz, and Kircher, knew exactly what would follow from their decision to sell to an outsider but went ahead and did it anyway. I am sure if the owner of White Pass called up Alterra and said they wanted to sell, Alterra would pull out the check book. But White Pass hasn't done that (yet).

[Stikki]

I am sure if the owner of White Pass called up Alterra and said they wanted to sell, Alterra would pull out the check book. But White Pass hasn't done that (yet).

Hmm.

Answering another question, Cooper said Vail Resorts had no interest in acquiring White Pass, although the company's acquisition of Stevens Pass Ski Area near Skykomish "sent more skiers our way."

https://www.chronline.com/stories/wh...n-nears,303281

There's strategy involved and it is two pronged. The ski area itself as a business and the quantity and quality of the customer base. It's all about ROI. Can they grow the area? Profitability? Debt load? And/or what price are they paying for the customer base? What is the quality of the customers (household income, travel habits, etc)?

[altasnob]

Hmm.



https://www.chronline.com/stories/wh...n-nears,303281

The owner of White Pass can claim that Vail (or Alterra) doesn't want to buy White Pass all they want, but I don't believe it. It's just posturing so his customers don't freak out if he hints Vail is lurking. As I mentioned, there will soon be 6 million people in Seattle metro. And another 3 million in Portland. Where do you think all these people are moving? It's the to the South Puget Sound and Vancouver, WA (Clark County, WA, is the fastest growing county in WA). They are talking about putting a new airport out in Yelm. White Pass is close to where all this growth will occur in the next decades.

Baker would be attractive too as it is close to both Seattle and Vancouver metros.

[The AD]

I'll tell you what: it's a lot easier to say "I'll never sell" when you're not looking at a big whopping offer on the table. Money talks.

[MagnificentUnicorn]

I didn’t realize JK was a WA native and had deep roots and commitment to the local community


Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

[Bunion 2020]

Neither did he. Love hearing someone say what someone else should do with their legacy and money.

[altasnob]

Lots of fucking apologist here. The guy was handed a ski area by his daddy and then said, I don't want it, and sold it to Alterra. His family owns 11 ski areas and a bunch of golf courses. Money is no issue for him. He's got all the money a person could need BEFORE he sold Crystal to Alterra. It's not a legacy when you inherit/gifted a bunch of shit and then permanently fuck it up. And you don't need to be born and raised in WA to know how shitty selling Crystal (was family owned) to Alterra (private equity owned) will be. It's called common decency.

When Howard Shultz sold the Sonics for a $150 million profit I bet y'all were saying how we should just respect his business decision, we shouldn't criticize a person for wanting even more wealth, and how dare anyone question how Mr. Shultz views his legacy.

[Buster Highmen]

Americans can go ahead and continue to fuck one another over as much as possible.
May an investment banker buy out your dependencies.

[The AD]

It's not a legacy when you inherit/gifted a bunch of shit and then permanently fuck it up.

How, exactly, is it permanently fucked up? The same mountain is there that always was.

[altasnob]

How, exactly, is it permanently fucked up? The same mountain is there that always was.

To be completely honest, Alterra's management of Crystal has irked me in some ways, but overall, the skiing experience is still enjoyable and not entirely different than management under Kircher.

With that said, I don't trust Alterra. I don't trust Vail. We are only five years in. 100 years from now we can look back and try to decide how Crystal under Alterra is different from where it would be had Kircher sold to a local ownership group. The general themes you will see is more development focusing mainly on overnight guests. The development, and general management, will cater more to wealthy clientele. Lots of corporate partnerships. While Ikon pass, and the other pass options, are not outrageous at the moment, I don't have any faith that this will continue. I also believe Alterra believes non-paying customers (the backcountry skiers, hikers, and snow shoers) are cutting into their bottom line and should be eliminated or minimized as much as possible. They will try to capture every possible penny with things like paid parking, even though it will piss off their clientele, because they know their clientele has no choice but to continue to ski there (Crysal and Alpental are the only realistic day trips from me and I have always been a Crystalsnob). It will have an increased overall corporate feel. An analogy is your local dive bar just bought by Applebees.

[Toadman]

Banditman said it. Xtal is going to continue to change. Alterra's model is to continue to provide those "value added" services for $$$$. As altasnob has so pungently aliquoted, Alterra is in the business of making money from rich people who like to ski, or like to be seen skiing. I would not be at all surprised if they try and figure out a way to take more parking spaces and build some 5 star hotel for the moneyed set. Alterra could always look to eventually try and push parking down 410 somewhere and force people to ride in a bus to the base.

Next comes the helipad for $600 o/w from SEA to Xtal so the rich don't have to be bothered with the schlep from the airport to Xtal.

[The AD]

The only consistent thing in the ski resort industry seems to be change. How many owners has Steven Pass had in the last 20 years, for example? Maybe Alterra will still be involved a decade from now, maybe they won't.

[altasnob]

I would not be at all surprised if they try and figure out a way to take more parking spaces and build some 5 star hotel for the moneyed set. Alterra could always look to eventually try and push parking down 410 somewhere and force people to ride in a bus to the base.

Alterra has already announced plans to build a 100 room hotel at the base. They break ground on that after they finish the new lodge that is being built.

There is not much more room at the base for more parking unless they go with a parking garage. If they wanted to add parking along 410, they would have to purchase the land. There is not any large, undeveloped, swaths of private property available. And the rest is National Forest, or owned by the Muckleshoot Tribe. And land is not cheap, not just along 410 but even down in Enumclaw.

Just like with Palisades, Alterra sees the solution to their parking issues as changing their clientele from day trippers to overnight guests.

[TBS]

Bacherlor, Big Sky, and Sun Valley are all legitimate destination resorts. Crystal and Stevens are not, and never will be no matter how hard Alterra and Vail tries (they lack the expansive terrain).

Crystal is 4 high speed quads, a gondola, and is 2,600 skiable acres (half of which you have to hike to get to).

Bachelor has 8 high speed quads and 4,323 acres.

Big Sky is has 8 high speeds, a tram, and 5,850 acres

And of those high speed quads, one was broken down all of last season and two this year are running at 2/3 speed because the main drive motors died when they fired it up at start of season.

And one of those two chairs was down completely for a week last month after blowing hydraulic fluid all over a bunch of patrons and the surrounding snow. Which chair serves about 1/3 of the total acreage

Legitimate destination resorts don’t have those kind of repeated failures.

[The AD]

There is not much more room at the base for more parking unless they go with a parking garage. If they wanted to add parking along 410, they would have to purchase the land. There is not any large, undeveloped, swaths of private property available. And the rest is National Forest. And land is not cheap, not just along 410 but even down in Enumclaw.

Maybe Greenwater can become the next Bend...

[altasnob]

Maybe Alterra will still be involved a decade from now, maybe they won't.

Vail, Inc. has been around and traded publicly since 1997. By comparison, Amazon was founded in 1994. So Vail is just as entrenched as other companies that dominate our lives. I don't see Vail, or Alterra, going away in our lifetime. Alterra is not some insolvent mom and pop. They own 16 ski resorts (Vail owns 41). If anything, I see Vail and Alterra's market share increasing through the years rather than going down. It's like any other industry, which is increasingly dominated by just a few entities.

[altasnob]

Legitimate destination resorts don’t have those kind of repeated failures.

It's because Bachelor is owned by another spoiled rich kid who was handed all his money from daddy.

[altasnob]

Maybe Greenwater can become the next Bend...

I know this is a joke but Greenwater is a massive flood/lahar plain. There is not much more development that you will see there. And we have urban growth boundaries in WA.