Crystal Mountain Becomes Alterra

[Ørion]

The things I wish they had explicitly addressed, but we're about to find out real-time, is:

1. What happens when multiple IKON holders rely on the same vehicle. Both my partner and I registered the same plate at the start of the season since only one of our vehicles is AWD. We also have a set of friends who rely exclusively on our vehicle to make it up 410 (otherwise its the bus for them), if they register does that mean we'll have 8 days to coordinate?
1b. What happens if the vehicle makes it but the registered IKON reserve-holder for that day does not scan their pass?

2. Are non-pass-holders just not allowed to reserve on weekends? Agree or not, it made twisted logic to charge non-pass-holders for parking since they could argue they're paying for a service that otherwise wouldn't be there (plowing and maintaining trailhead parking, like a pricey private snopark pass). Completely banning backcountry users from access during weekends seems a step too far, even if they offer a free shuttle as an alternative.

[altasnob]

Here's what I assume the answers to be:

1. You get 8 days to reserve with 4 season passes. I also assume kids passes count, so each kid gets you 2 reservable spots too. I also assume both Ikon full, and Ikon base, get you 2 spots. In other words, the reservation system greatly favors families over individual dudes. If the reservable pass holder doesn't get their pass scanned at the lift you get a $100 fine and potentially lose ability to make future reservations.

2. At this point, if you are trying to buy a day ticket for a weekend you have to do so online. On most of the busy days they are not even selling day tickets. On the days they do sell day tickets in advance, I assume you get a spot reserved with your day ticket.

Regarding backcountry, it still says this on Crystal's website:

"Q: If I am skiing the backcountry on Fridays, Saturdays, Sundays, and holidays do I need to pay to park?
Yes. We encourage you to carpool (4+) with your backcountry buddies for free parking in designated spots."

I have no idea how this is going to work for backcountry skiers on weekends. By "free parking in designated spots" is Crystal referring to the carpool spot at the front of C? I assume if you show up with a group of 4 you can park in this carpool lot without a reservation, and without paying, regardless of whether you are there for lifts of backcountry (a dude checks you to see if you have 4 when you park here, but beyond that, no other questions are asked). But that carpool lot is small and fills up fast. Bottom line, if you have 4 in your car, I assume you can park for free, without reservation, regardless of whether you are there for backcountry or lifts, so long as you get there before the very small carpool lot fills up.

[mmmm...pow!]

What's particularly irksome about the whole reservation system, I think, is that there's no other outdoor recreation that works this way. Trailheads in the summer? Get there early or maybe don't get a parking spot. Parking spots at the public boat launch? Get there early or don't get a spot. Want to climb the Tooth on a summer weekend day? Whoa buddy, better be there early AF or you'll be waiting *a while*. Most of us posting on this website grew up with first-come first-serve public campgrounds (and many places still are)

I'm just browsing this thread to check on conditions, but this soap opera has totally sucked me in. I've never skied in WA, so my expert opinion means nothing here, and I do believe the reservation system is bullshit. However, where the fuck have you been? Reservations are needed for all sorts of outdoor recreation nowadays. Want to visit Yosemite? Better have a reservation. Want to hike Angel's Landing to get that sick Insta pic? Reservation. Camping almost anywhere that has shitters and a fire ring during the summer? Reservation. Be glad they aren't using some third party company like recreation.gov (I honestly don't know what they are using) that charges a fee just for making the reservation. And yeah, Alterra might have sold too many passes, but there is gonna be a whole lot of bitching here when they decide to limit passes, with the price jacked up to offset decreased numbers, and everybody gets on the website to purchase the exact minute they are available, and half of you are out of luck a minute later when they are all gone.

[oftpiste]

oftpiste rants are choice this year.

Must be the covidz.....

Lots of good salient points and questions above.

Hope yer body's healing up Norse.

[jacob_dbu]

I really don't think Crystal has been that big of a shit show the few days I've been so far this year. As oft has said again and again. Get up early, get parking. It's simple. The lines are long sure, but they're no worse than any other popular resorts and it's still easy to find freshies late in the day if you know where to look.

Now the management is complicating all this shit with reservations BS.

Here's what would have been a smarter reservation system IMO. Make C-lot for reservations only. That's like what 400ish reservations per day. If you want one either play the computer speed game or make them expensive (e.g. $100). Don't let anyone park in C-lot except res holders. So if you want to show up late, you can pay for it or click clack your keyboard at the right time. For the rest of us, we get up early and ski no problemo.

[altasnob]

, where the fuck have you been? Reservations are needed for all sorts of outdoor recreation nowadays. Want to visit Yosemite? Better have a reservation. Want to hike Angel's Landing to get that sick Insta pic? Reservation. Camping almost anywhere that has shitters and a fire ring during the summer? Reservation.

All those examples are from the National Park Service. This is USFS land, a whole different branch of government. And while popular national parks, like Yoesemite, have started to require reservations for day visits, that hasn't applied to any Washington National Parks (yet). I still can't think of a single USFS spot in the entire US that requires a reservation for day use.

[timeo]

From what I can decipher from the Xtal website is that the parking reservations are tied to car license plates and not individual Ikon passes so it doesn't matter at all whose Ikon pass is or isn't scanned. Also, I don't think kid passes will be able to make parking reservations.

Prior to the reservation system being put in place, all passholders needed to register their license plate to avoid parking tickets. When I did this it was clear that only people over 16 could register a license plate w/ their pass. Crystal has said that they will be scanning license plates in the lot during the day and I have seen a bunch of tickets on cars already so it appears they have the ability to determine whose car is a registered pass holder OR who has paid for parking at the lot vs. who has not paid.

Since they already have all passholders license plates on file and the ability to scan in the lots, it leads me to the conclusion that enforcement has nothing to do w/ your Ikon pass number. They will just scan the license plates and ticket as needed.

I guess I should count myself lucky since I have a 16yr old son and two 4wd cars so I registered one car under each of our passes which should give us 4 reservations even though we only drive one car each trip.

[oftpiste]

They've created what appears to be an unsolvable problem, at least unsolvable in a way that makes any real sense in the context of how many of us have skied our entire lives. And yes, there will be bitching, because they made this mess from whole cloth.

Alterra might have sold too many passes, but there is gonna be a whole lot of bitching here when they decide to limit passes, with the price jacked up to offset decreased numbers, and everybody gets on the website to purchase the exact minute they are available, and half of you are out of luck a minute later when they are all gone.

[mmmm...pow!]

All those examples are from the National Park Service. This is USFS land, a whole different branch of government. And while popular national parks, like Yoesemite, have started to require reservations for day visits, that hasn't applied to any Washington National Parks (yet). I still can't think of a single USFS spot in the entire US that requires a reservation for day use.

Again, I don't agree with it, but it's already happening in your backyard.
https://www.wta.org/go-outside/passes
And from that page I linked:
Backcountry (or wilderness) permits, like those issued in national parks or wilderness quota areas like the Enchantments, serve a different purpose. Permits are a way of regulating the amount of foot traffic in fragile environments that can only handle so much use before they begin to erode. Permits are intended not only preserve the environment but also the hiking experience. This allows you to immerse yourself in the sights and sounds of nature—without being overrun with crowds.
Call it a reservation or a permit, serves the same purpose.

[altasnob]

From what I can decipher from the Xtal website is that the parking reservations are tied to car license plates and not individual Ikon passes so it doesn't matter at all whose Ikon pass is or isn't scanned. Also, I don't think kid passes will be able to make parking reservations.

Prior to the reservation system being put in place, all passholders needed to register their license plate to avoid parking tickets. When I did this it was clear that only people over 16 could register a license plate w/ their pass. Crystal has said that they will be scanning license plates in the lot during the day and I have seen a bunch of tickets on cars already so it appears they have the ability to determine whose car is a registered pass holder OR who has paid for parking at the lot vs. who has not paid.

Since they already have all passholders license plates on file and the ability to scan in the lots, it leads me to the conclusion that enforcement has nothing to do w/ your Ikon pass number. They will just scan the license plates and ticket as needed.

I guess I should count myself lucky since I have a 16yr old son and two 4wd cars so I registered one car under each of our passes which should give us 4 reservations even though we only drive one car each trip.

So if a family of four, two adults, two kids under 16, has only one vehicle they drive up to Crystal, they only get 2 reservations. But if there is another family with two vehicles they drive up to Crystal, they get 4?

At this point, we just need AG Bob Ferguson to come in and figure all this out.

[mmmm...pow!]

They've created what appears to be an unsolvable problem, at least unsolvable in a way that makes any real sense in the context of how many of us have skied our entire lives. And yes, there will be bitching, because they made this mess from whole cloth.

Funny thing is, we keep hearing that nationwide skier numbers have been flat for years, with some minor fluctuations based on primarily on snowfall. Yet we also keep hearing stories from ski areas all over the country (and Canadia), big and small, that are overrun with skiers.

[altasnob]

Again, I don't agree with it, but it's already happening in your backyard.
https://www.wta.org/go-outside/passes
And from that page I linked:
Backcountry (or wilderness) permits, like those issued in national parks or wilderness quota areas like the Enchantments, serve a different purpose. Permits are a way of regulating the amount of foot traffic in fragile environments that can only handle so much use before they begin to erode. Permits are intended not only preserve the environment but also the hiking experience. This allows you to immerse yourself in the sights and sounds of nature—without being overrun with crowds.
Call it a reservation or a permit, serves the same purpose.

No, a permit, and reservation that restricts day use, is not the same thing. And permits for overnight stays are not the same as requiring reservations for day trips. A Washington Discover Pass, NW Forest Pass, and National Park pass, are all required for day trips to various places in Washington. But none of these limit the amount of people who can visit these places for a day.

The closest thing I thought of was that there was temporarily a restriction on who could park at the Stuart Lake trailhead in the Enchantments. This was because so many people were cramming themselves in along the dirt road that emergency personal couldn't make it to the trailhead. But I checked and today, they allow people to park on only one side of the road, first come first served (or at least, after the gate opens as this trailhead is closed in the winter).

[timeo]

So if a family of four, two adults, two kids under 16, has only one vehicle they drive up to Crystal, they only get 2 reservations. But if there is another family with two vehicles they drive up to Crystal, they get 4?

That is how I think it will work, though the family of 4 could register another car on the other adult pass to get two more reservations. Maybe then wait until 3 AM in the morning to cancel the reservation on the car they can't take to the mountain and then immediately snag the open reservation for their mountain car What a shit show this will be....

[Yonder_River]

Remove registered non-awd license plate when leaving house, apply magnet tape, attach to awd vehicle upon arrival. Unless make and model are also recorded. Then nevermind.

[ptavv]

I like how I made a general point about *the vast majority of public land access in the US* being first come first serve and everyone is all excited to start listing exceptions.

Of course there are exceptions -- in fact they do a great job illustrating how aberrant it is for (at least in the Western US) our access to public lands to be curtailed by reservation systems. Setting the National Parks aside (which have always had more restrictions on access and usage [recreational and commercial] than other public lands) it's pretty obvious that the structure and purpose of nearly all reservation systems and restrictions to BLM, USFS, and most state land is founded in either a) protection of the people (restrictions on parking to allow EMS vehicles access, information transmission to public safety officials who may be responsible for a rescue, establishing minimum aptitude standards) and/or b) protecting the landscape from being overwhelmed by people (the Enchantments can't support as many overnight groups as could park at the trailheads).

The Crystal system is just changing *who* is parking out the lots at the end of the Blvd, it's not meaningfully decreasing the number of people or preserving some public safety access. Instead of being parked out by people who got up early, it'll be parked out by people who figured out how to extract the most from the parking reservation system.

This is why I don't think it's a restriction that jives with any of the other examples being brought up here and why I don't think it is in the spirit of access to public lands.

Hell, when I was a kid even the campgrounds at National Parks were almost entirely first come, first serve.

Again, I don't agree with it, but it's already happening in your backyard.
https://www.wta.org/go-outside/passes
And from that page I linked:
Backcountry (or wilderness) permits, like those issued in national parks or wilderness quota areas like the Enchantments, serve a different purpose. Permits are a way of regulating the amount of foot traffic in fragile environments that can only handle so much use before they begin to erode. Permits are intended not only preserve the environment but also the hiking experience. This allows you to immerse yourself in the sights and sounds of nature—without being overrun with crowds.
Call it a reservation or a permit, serves the same purpose.

Parking passes to utilize public trailheads are not at all the same thing as a reservation requirement. In fact they're a great example of how having a pass doesn't ensure access since the trailheads are pretty much all first come first serve. Also, the passes only need to exist because we've decided to stop funding maintenance of America's public lands with public money, which leads to fee-for-service kludges like parking passes that inevitably lock lower income people out of access to public goods.

[altasnob]

Hell, when I was a kid even the campgrounds at National Parks were almost entirely first come, first serve.

A lot still are, at least in Washington State. Only Cougar Rock (Rainier) and Kalaloch, Hoh, and Sol Duc (Olys) allow you to reserve. The rest are first come, first served.

[oftpiste]

Right? So really, WTF is going on? Creation of new demand by lowering entry barriers? I wonder if the skier numbers overall stay the same, but are more concentrated during peak times - holidays etc. - making it feel (to us who have seen all times of many seasons) like they're overrun for short periods of time?

Funny thing is, we keep hearing that nationwide skier numbers have been flat for years, with some minor fluctuations based on primarily on snowfall. Yet we also keep hearing stories from ski areas all over the country (and Canadia), big and small, that are overrun with skiers.

[Buster Highmen]

Nationwide, skier numbers may be flat, but that doesn't address the changing geographic distribution of skiers or ski areas.

Overall, there are significantly fewer ski areas nationwide over the last 30 years with particular attrition in the midwaste and l'east coast, not to mention the rockies.

Also, populations have gravitated from the midwaste and l'east coast to metro areas in the Rockies as well as burgeoning growth along the waste coast, the Plangent Sound in particular.

So, between the change in numbers of ski areas and distribution of assholes like myself, the "flat" numbers don't describe the effects seen across the rockies or the waste coast.

[SorryBro]

A lot still are, at least in Washington State. Only Cougar Rock (Rainier) and Kalaloch, Hoh, and Sol Duc (Olys) allow you to reserve. The rest are first come, first served.

^ Incorrect. Ohanapecosh (East Rainier) also allows reservations (and I highly recommend getting one or you won't find a spot)

[greenmachine]

I still vote that Ikon has people designate a "home mountain" and limit sales of that pass which provides unlimited at that mountain. how many ikon pass holders need more than 5 or 7 at a second or third mountain? In my case 7 at the pass is enough and it certainly covers anywhere else.

[phatty]

I still vote that Ikon has people designate a "home mountain" and limit sales of that pass which provides unlimited at that mountain. how many ikon pass holders need more than 5 or 7 at a second or third mountain? In my case 7 at the pass is enough and it certainly covers anywhere else.

I've always felt that made the most sense. You can even sell one that doesn't designate a "home" unlimited mountain for cheaper. Like a beefed up Mountain Collective pass.

[nickwm21]

Nationwide, skier numbers may be flat, but that doesn't address the changing geographic distribution of skiers or ski areas.

Overall, there are significantly fewer ski areas nationwide over the last 30 years with particular attrition in the midwaste and l'east coast, not to mention the rockies.

Also, populations have gravitated from the midwaste and l'east coast to metro areas in the Rockies as well as burgeoning growth along the waste coast, the Plangent Sound in particular.

So, between the change in numbers of ski areas and distribution of assholes like myself, the "flat" numbers don't describe the effects seen across the rockies or the waste coast.

The last few seasons we’ve heard that skier numbers are “flat” but that doesn’t compute. I got curious so I looked at the data from NSAA…

Both skier visits and active participates slowly/fumbly climbed until 2010/2011, then dipped and puttered for a few years (presumably based on economics), and then shot back up 2018/2019. Then dipped 2020 (COVID). And now it’s back up.

Since NSAA started tracking the total number of resorts in the US it’s been a slow decline.

91/92 - 546 resorts, 50m visits
96/97 - 507 resorts, 52m visits, 8.6m participants
10/11 - 486 resorts, 60m visits, 10m participants
20/21 - 462 resorts, 59m visits, 10.5m participants


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[nickwm21]

https://www.nsaa.org/NSAA/Media/Industry_Stats.aspx


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[Buster Highmen]

Since NSAA started tracking the total number of resorts in the US it’s been a slow decline.

91/92 - 546 resorts, 50m visits
96/97 - 507 resorts, 52m visits, 8.6m participants
10/11 - 486 resorts, 60m visits, 10m participants
20/21 - 462 resorts, 59m visits, 10.5m participants

That data shows the skier density (not stupidity, although clearly that's in question as well) at the average resort has steadily climbed and that's what we're experiencing.

91/92 50M/542 == 92,250.922 visits/resort
96/97 52M/502 == 102,564.102 visits/resort
10/11 60M/486 == 123,456.790 visits/resort
20/21 59M/462 == 127,705.627 visits/resort

This also ignores the distribution of skiers in the Plangent Sound relative to the midwaste.

On average that's 35,454.705 more visits per resort since 91/92. Flat my ass.

[Toadman]

There's simply way too much participation in the dying sport of skiing.