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  1. #976
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    “Sorry we sold more passes than we possibly have parking for even when we have all the data on pass sales and the parking math is incredibly simple arithmetic. You can’t park here now on a weekend except for two days even though we said that you had unlimited access. Here ride this free bus during a pandemic.”

    While I might doubt the strategy of any of these measures, introducing them before passes are sold would be at least fair business practice. Selling unlimited passes that cannot reasonably/safely be used is not.

  2. #977
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dromond View Post
    “Sorry we sold more passes than we possibly have parking for even when we have all the data on pass sales and the parking math is incredibly simple arithmetic. You can’t park here now on a weekend except for two days even though we said that you had unlimited access. Here ride this free bus during a pandemic.”

    While I might doubt the strategy of any of these measures, introducing them before passes are sold would be at least fair business practice. Selling unlimited passes that cannot reasonably/safely be used is not.
    Yep.

    Thanks Frank!
    Quote Originally Posted by Downbound Train View Post
    And there will come a day when our ancestors look back...........

  3. #978
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    Crystal patrol and lift ops straight up rules and they run that place really well IMO. Whoever is responsible for the pass/parking/reservation shenanigans between Alterra/Crystal should straight up be fired. Or perhaps someone just needs to buy them a calculator. Seriously this has got to be the least complex part of running a ski area. Be clear ahead of time what happens if they run out of parking, or set expectations ahead of time about availability of said parking I.e. “there is no limitation to the number of passes sold and parking is first come first serve always” or implement your janky parking reservation system in May so people know what they are buying.

  4. #979
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dromond View Post
    Crystal patrol and lift ops straight up rules and they run that place really well IMO. Whoever is responsible for the pass/parking/reservation shenanigans between Alterra/Crystal should straight up be fired
    Yep.

    Deberry wouldn't keep his job in any sane world.
    Quote Originally Posted by Downbound Train View Post
    And there will come a day when our ancestors look back...........

  5. #980
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dromond View Post
    Crystal patrol and lift ops straight up rules and they run that place really well IMO. Whoever is responsible for the pass/parking/reservation shenanigans between Alterra/Crystal should straight up be fired. Or perhaps someone just needs to buy them a calculator. Seriously this has got to be the least complex part of running a ski area. Be clear ahead of time what happens if they run out of parking, or set expectations ahead of time about availability of said parking I.e. “there is no limitation to the number of passes sold and parking is first come first serve always” or implement your janky parking reservation system in May so people know what they are buying.
    QFT. Crystal lift ops and Patrol fucking rocks

  6. #981
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    The pandemic and all its craziness highlighted what an impressive job Crystal patrol has done getting the mountain open safely and quickly through last winter's amazing snow and they've kept it up this year.

  7. #982
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    Crystal patrol is excellent, one of the best things about Crystal.

    Two parking reservations?? How is this is going to appease any unhappy consumers? This seems much worse to me. If I want to ski 2 weekends in a row I'm going to be trying to figure out exactly what time on Saturday I can make a reservation for next Saturday. Is it noon? Am I going to try doing it from my phone while riding the lift?

    Nobody wants to ride a bus, especially right now, and calling the parking lot in Enumclaw their "overflow lot" is severe spin.

    Three years ago I could understand how they were taken off-guard by the IKON influx. This is really poor management. Flailing around trying to solve a problem today they have known they had for years.
    that's all i can think of, but i'm sure there's something else...

  8. #983
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    I was pondering how he missed a big PR opportunity in the language for the reversal. “Thank you for all the input from our loyal customers. We have heard you, understand your concerns and we’re going to try ____ instead “

    Instead, more “customer experience“ corpspeak bullshit. Not looking a gift horse in the mouth, but as a business in the weeds you don’t get thrown that fat a pitch often. Unbelievable.

    Apparently a graduate of the Donald trump business school.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Foggy_Goggles View Post
    If I lived in WA, Oft would be my realtor. Seriously.

  9. #984
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    No surprise, really.
    I don't think they really care about customers.
    My guess is that with all the pushback, their lawyers began to consider the misrepresentation and legal issues more seriously.
    Merde De Glace On the Freak When Ski
    >>>200 cm Black Bamboo Sidewalled DPS Lotus 120 : Best Skis Ever <<<

  10. #985
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    Quote Originally Posted by oftpiste View Post
    I was pondering how he missed a big PR opportunity in the language for the reversal. “Thank you for all the input from our loyal customers. We have heard you, understand your concerns and we’re going to try ____ instead “

    Instead, more “customer experience“ corpspeak bullshit. Not looking a gift horse in the mouth, but as a business in the weeds you don’t get thrown that fat a pitch often. Unbelievable.

    Apparently a graduate of the Donald trump business school.


    Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums
    The whole "our dedicated mountain community" bit is particularly aggravating.

    Especially when he writes a letter to it.

    Does anyone know how to hack the lots are full sign by the claw golf course to read Fire Frank!
    Quote Originally Posted by Downbound Train View Post
    And there will come a day when our ancestors look back...........

  11. #986
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    Quote Originally Posted by ASP View Post
    QFT. Crystal lift ops and Patrol fucking rocks
    Ditto. I have been to many, many other ski areas that have taken days to open terrain, and wondering WTF is taking them so long. I'm talking days with 8"-10" of new snow. Xtal ski patrollers know their mountain and how to get her opened for those that can get a reservation and a parking spot to ski it!
    "We don't beat the reaper by living longer, we beat the reaper by living well and living fully." - Randy Pausch

  12. #987
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    I think you are exactly right Buster. When you’ve sold 3-4 times the number of passes as you can accommodate you don’t need to care.

    DeBerry’s words speak volumes:

    Quote Originally Posted by ianpnw View Post
    DeBerry replied to my email and confirmed that its all about traffic and parking, and said that if I didn’t like the reservation system I could turn in my season’s pass, or ski midweek….
    Our great works of human enterprise will fade away with time. The mountain will endure. ~nps

  13. #988
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    Quote Originally Posted by oftpiste View Post
    I was pondering how he missed a big PR opportunity in the language for the reversal. “Thank you for all the input from our loyal customers. We have heard you, understand your concerns and we’re going to try ____ instead “
    Pretty sure I’ve read that one from them before, and they realize that it means “well we really screwed that up, how can we work our way out of that hole”
    Our great works of human enterprise will fade away with time. The mountain will endure. ~nps

  14. #989
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    Maybe I'll get grilled for this take...

    I think we're all directing our energy at the wrong person. Frank has no power to change the root cause of this: overselling passes. We should really be holding Alterra leadership (Crusty Rusty?) accountable.

    I think if Frank came out and said "sorry guys, Rusty said we can't limit pass sales", then he'd really get canned. He is a figurehead. A punching bag. We can keep punching the bag or try to get to the root of the problem.

    Unfortunately I think Rusty and his gang of thugs aren't going to play nice and act like they care about "preserving mountain culture"

  15. #990
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    Quote Originally Posted by thejongiest View Post
    This is exactly what I’m afraid of. At least we knew how the Crystal reservation system worked last year where the night before you could almost always find a spot.

    Now it’s a whole new system that’s going to be ???? Two reservations is not a lot to let you figure it out.
    That's point; there should not be a reservation system for either skiing or parking. It was to be unlimited this year.

    Quote Originally Posted by counterfeitfake View Post
    Crystal patrol is excellent, one of the best things about Crystal.

    Two parking reservations?? How is this is going to appease any unhappy consumers? This seems much worse to me. If I want to ski 2 weekends in a row I'm going to be trying to figure out exactly what time on Saturday I can make a reservation for next Saturday. Is it noon? Am I going to try doing it from my phone while riding the lift?

    Nobody wants to ride a bus, especially right now, and calling the parking lot in Enumclaw their "overflow lot" is severe spin.

    Three years ago I could understand how they were taken off-guard by the IKON influx. This is really poor management. Flailing around trying to solve a problem today they have known they had for years.
    Precisely. Parking reservations are stupid. Hardly anywhere else does such a thing exist regarding recreation. It's such a big FAIL

    Quote Originally Posted by Buster Highmen View Post
    No surprise, really.
    I don't think they really care about customers.
    My guess is that with all the pushback, their lawyers began to consider the misrepresentation and legal issues more seriously.
    And, as previously mentioned, there were some well-connected and well-heeled Karens and Chads that complained with enough clout to have ol' Frank pull an about-face. Because, you know, why would you need to get up early in order to secure a spot in the lot when you can just swing your status and complain to the GM?

  16. #991
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    Quote Originally Posted by goCougs View Post
    Maybe I'll get grilled for this take...

    I think we're all directing our energy at the wrong person. Frank has no power to change the root cause of this: overselling passes. We should really be holding Alterra leadership (Crusty Rusty?) accountable.

    I think if Frank came out and said "sorry guys, Rusty said we can't limit pass sales", then he'd really get canned. He is a figurehead. A punching bag. We can keep punching the bag or try to get to the root of the problem.

    Unfortunately I think Rusty and his gang of thugs aren't going to play nice and act like they care about "preserving mountain culture"
    I think you're on to something. Direct our concerns at the root, upper management as well as USFS and USDA, not to mention a congressperson or two.

    Consumers are getting shafted by this mechanism. We should be able to appeal to government for the people.
    Merde De Glace On the Freak When Ski
    >>>200 cm Black Bamboo Sidewalled DPS Lotus 120 : Best Skis Ever <<<

  17. #992
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    I mean, I think it's true that the root problem is there are too many Ikon passes sold in the Puget Sound.

    With a multi-resort season pass I don't know what the mechanism is to limit sales. Conceptually it doesn't make sense from a consumer stand point to enter a lottery to maybe get a multi-resort pass that covers where you want to take your extravagant family winter vacation. It doesn't make sense from Alterra's perspective to limit pass sales because of overcrowding at some of their resorts whereas other resorts aren't overcrowded. Beyond the conceptual part, what's the nuts-and-bolts way that you limit this? Billing zip codes? Metro areas? I'd just change my billing address to a family members in another region of the country to buy my Ikon pass "there" to get around any regional sales limitations.

    Back when we bought season passes that were exclusive to a single resort the limitation of passes made a lot of sense (it's what Snoqualmie and Baker do). Back when I was a kid, Alta used to limit the number of day tickets they sold for the same reason.

    Not sure how any of those crowding control options are compatible with the multi-resort pass model. Ikon pretty clearly doesn't want the flagship (i.e. most expensive) passes to come with any limitations on use at their own resorts, which is the only other way of limiting access with these passes. The move to needing the full Ikon pass for unlimited days and it's couple hundred $$ price increase clearly didn't have much effect on crowding.

    It seems like the only realistic option is that they keep increasing the price of passes that offer unlimited days at the resorts that get crowded in the hopes of curtailing purchases and then putting pretty strict limits on the number of days that lower tier passes get at those resorts. Which is going to suck quite a lot for a lot of people who've made lifestyle/earning sacrifices in order to maximize their ability to ski a lot.

    Thinking about this a little more, an option for next season would be for Crystal to offer a "Crystal only" season pass that comes with no need for parking reservations and limit the number of them. Then let the people who want to buy Ikons have to deal with a parking reservation system. Give people a perk for losing the other resorts and make people choose to be Crystal exclusive skiers, or to fight for weekend parking spots.

  18. #993
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptavv View Post
    I mean, I think it's true that the root problem is there are too many Ikon passes sold in the Puget Sound...

    .... putting pretty strict limits on the number of days that passes get at Crystal.. .
    Would be one approach.

    These people are earning serious money. If they can't figure out a way to solve these problems, they should be fired, not promoted.
    Merde De Glace On the Freak When Ski
    >>>200 cm Black Bamboo Sidewalled DPS Lotus 120 : Best Skis Ever <<<

  19. #994
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    As I continue to stew on shitshow, I can't help but think about how poorly Alterra and their conglomeration of resorts have handled this whole thing. From my view, Ikon appeared to be the lesser of two evils. After all; they weren't Vail corp, and that in itself is a big thing. Further, they seemed to pull together many of the great hills and resorts. Again - not places like Vail. That seemed to matter to us skiers.

    Now, with their firm grasp on these same mountains and ski areas; they've squeezed and squeezed hard. No tram access to Big Sky, difficult reservation systems at many resorts, limited days at others, parking reservations, and now with Crystal; not-really-unlimited skiing.

    So while Crystal, and their bumbling of what shouldn't be such a big issue, is really just a microcosm of what's happening across the other Alterra properties... and it fucking sucks.

  20. #995
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buster Highmen View Post
    Would be one approach.

    These people are earning serious money. If they can't figure out a way to solve these problems, they should be fired, not promoted.
    I mean, I think it's the lowest hanging fruit and *an* option, but I don't think Alterra has any appetite for a) creating further pass tiers or b) limiting days at their Alterra owned properties on the full pass. I think all of the crowding problems at Mammoth and Crystal and whatnot are certainly going to auger a steep price increase to the "full" Ikon pass for next year and then the same, or even fewer, days on the lower tier pass already.

    I think it's an open question what effect price increases will have have in the regions of the country that have few ski area options (which is to say everywhere but SLC, Tahoe, and I-70), particularly areas where the only alternative are poorly managed Vail resorts where the terrain doesn't open, even if it's cheaper.

  21. #996
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    What they need to do is take the approach that a place like Alta does. If you want unlimited at Alta you have to pay a lot of money. You can get 7 days by just getting the Ikon. And you can also get an Ikon add-on to the unlimited pass.

    Basically there should be a Crystal Unlimited that costs like $2000, then add $250 for an Ikon. Or buy a full Ikon for $1k and get 7-10 days, or buy a base Ikon for $600 and get 5 days.

  22. #997
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    Great idea! Frank is reading this and hears you loud and clear. Starting next year, Crystal unlimited will be $2,000. No, fuck it, make if $4,000. That's really what the complainers want; their own private ski area on the public's land.

    Alterra is a private equity firm. Is there a benevolent private equity firm that exists on Earth? At least Vail, being publicly traded, has disclosure requirements.

    I'm mostly a weekend warrior and really don't think Crystal is that bad. Learn the drill. You will never make everyone happy with whatever they do.

  23. #998
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    Quote Originally Posted by thejongiest View Post
    What they need to do is take the approach that a place like Alta does
    What he said, and

    Quote Originally Posted by ptavv View Post
    Ikon pretty clearly doesn't want the flagship (i.e. most expensive) passes to come with any limitations on use at their own resorts
    They need to reconsider this. They ARE putting limitations on access to Crystal, they're just doing it this year via a dumb hack, after they got our money. It seems like they ought to be hurt by this in sales next year, I can't be sure that will happen.

    Quote Originally Posted by altasnob View Post
    I'm mostly a weekend warrior and really don't think Crystal is that bad. Learn the drill. You will never make everyone happy with whatever they do.
    That's what I thought when they announced they were going back to the same reservation plan they had last year; this 2 parking reservations thing is a lot different. We all have to learn the new drill.
    that's all i can think of, but i'm sure there's something else...

  24. #999
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    Quote Originally Posted by goCougs View Post
    Maybe I'll get grilled for this take...

    I think we're all directing our energy at the wrong person. Frank has no power to change the root cause of this: overselling passes. We should really be holding Alterra leadership (Crusty Rusty?) accountable.

    I think if Frank came out and said "sorry guys, Rusty said we can't limit pass sales", then he'd really get canned. He is a figurehead. A punching bag. We can keep punching the bag or try to get to the root of the problem.

    Unfortunately I think Rusty and his gang of thugs aren't going to play nice and act like they care about "preserving mountain culture"
    So, is Crystal a one off mess with oversold ski passes for Alterra? I mean, either Alterra raises pass prices for all ski areas next year, and not by just 10%-12%, or every ski resort gets hit with much higher prices to resolve just one problem child. IMO they would need to double pass prices to tamp down demand, as well as keep their GP margins. Heck, I bet they could increase GP margins significantly. No doubt some college grad with a stat/math degree is crunching those numbers right now.

    And I agree, this whole BS catch phrase being thrown out be the execs of "mountain culture" is insulting.
    "We don't beat the reaper by living longer, we beat the reaper by living well and living fully." - Randy Pausch

  25. #1000
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    Quote Originally Posted by counterfeitfake View Post
    It seems like they ought to be hurt by this in sales next year, I can't be sure that will happen.
    There is a surprising amount of facebook commenters that are praising Frank for the reservation system. Spineless corporate shills

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