Looking for the guy who made the step by step major sidewall repair post a while back

[DerekPersson]

Sorry For the PSA, but I'm really in need of some help!

I'm looking for the guy who made a legitimate step by step post on a major sidewall/edge repair from a while back. I believe he was based around Sandy, UT?

So long story short, I had some BRAND NEW ON3P Wrenegade 114's and smoked a rock my first run out on them. Sidewall stayed in-tact, but blew the edge apart and ripped out a bunch of base material as well as my heart, lol.

I was hoping this guy might still be around as he looked like he really knew what the hell he was doing and I'd gladly pay him to fix my boards. Shops don't seem to want to touch them, but they still seem fixable based on this old post I saw from this guy. Thanks in advance!

[PlayItLeo]

This guy https://www.tetongravity.com/forums/...d.php?t=274846 ?


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[DerekPersson]

Thanks man, I saw that, but the thing is my edge is actually cracked, not just compressed. From what I remember it was a different post too, but I could be wrong, its been a year or two.

[detuned]

that can be repaired, just have to replace that portion of the edge - sadly I don't have the chops to repair that for someone else but if they were my skis i'd take a crack at it

'14-'15 was a bitch year and i just happened to be working in a shop with a guy who performed that repair at least a half dozen times, his work turned out fine but his caveat was that ski had to be used left/right foot depending on which side the repair was, e.g. that ski should never be inside edge downhill ski

[pfluffenmeister]

Paging Alpinord to the white courtesy phone.

[iggyskier]

Shoot us an email (info @ on3pskis.com). We can send you some raw materials to fix it up. Red bases are 3-4 years old so don't have any of that, but can supply same material in green + edge.

Essentially you want to:
1) Cut off base +/- about 2cm past the further edge of the damage point. Use some sort of guide for the cut. A rectangle is ok but something with a curve will be stronger. Make sure cut is clean. Remove that base material once cut with a screw driver.
2) Figure out extent of edge damage. Anything with any sort of delam should go. Then cut the edge off past the damaged area by around 5mm per side with a Dremel or hack saw. You should now have a ski with removed base & removed edge, but everything that remained is structurally intact.
3) Prep the edge to fit the shape of the ski. This might require a bit of tweaking with pliers. You want to bevel the edges of the existing edge and the new edge at a 45 degree angle so they sit on top of each other (so not straight 90 degree match).
4) For epoxy, we recommend West System G-flex. New edge is prepped for bonding. Use C-Clamps to hold it in place and let cure for 24 hours. There is a notch built into the construction of the ski for the teeth to sit in, so it is will be clear how it should sit. That said, you might have some existing epoxy/VDS/Glass you need to knock down or remove to get the edge flush against the sidewall.
5) Once edge is reset, use the new base material to put in a base weld. Use same epoxy. New piece of base should be trimmed to an extra fit. Apply epoxy, base, clamp with c-clamps & good pressure. Use a piece of flat steel to equalize pressure.
6) If there are any gaps in the base weld, fill them with epoxy or a P-tex gun.
7) Grind the base and edges to make sure they are smooth and flush. Refinish bases & edges. Detune and ski.

I would recommend skiing with the replaced edge on the outside of the edge going forward.

Also - re: shop techs. This is a pretty standard ski repair at this point. I wouldn't put a lot of stock in a tech who balks at a repair like this.

Hope that helps.

[Island Bay]

Shoot us an email (info @ on3pskis.com). We can send you some raw materials to fix it up. Red bases are 3-4 years old so don't have any of that, but can supply same material in green + edge.

Essentially you want to:
1) Cut off base +/- about 2cm past the further edge of the damage point. Use some sort of guide for the cut. A rectangle is ok but something with a curve will be stronger. Make sure cut is clean. Remove that base material once cut with a screw driver.
2) Figure out extent of edge damage. Anything with any sort of delam should go. Then cut the edge off past the damaged area by around 5mm per side with a Dremel or hack saw. You should now have a ski with removed base & removed edge, but everything that remained is structurally intact.
3) Prep the edge to fit the shape of the ski. This might require a bit of tweaking with pliers. You want to bevel the edges of the existing edge and the new edge at a 45 degree angle so they sit on top of each other (so not straight 90 degree match).
4) For epoxy, we recommend West System G-flex. New edge is prepped for bonding. Use C-Clamps to hold it in place and let cure for 24 hours. There is a notch built into the construction of the ski for the teeth to sit in, so it is will be clear how it should sit. That said, you might have some existing epoxy/VDS/Glass you need to knock down or remove to get the edge flush against the sidewall.
5) Once edge is reset, use the new base material to put in a base weld. Use same epoxy. New piece of base should be trimmed to an extra fit. Apply epoxy, base, clamp with c-clamps & good pressure. Use a piece of flat steel to equalize pressure.
6) If there are any gaps in the base weld, fill them with epoxy or a P-tex gun.
7) Grind the base and edges to make sure they are smooth a flush. Refinish bases & edges. Detune and ski.

I would recommend skiing with the replaced edge on the outside of the edge going forward.

Also - re: shop techs. This is a pretty standard ski repair at this point. I wouldn't put a lot of stock in a tech who balks at a repair like this.

Hope that helps.

Good man, Iggy.

I did tons of these during my 7 years of part time shop work, and it's not rocket science, but a bit of an art. Really enjoyed doing them, and I agree that any good tech should be able to.

https://www.instagram.com/p/BnK9Zl-B...=kingswoodskis

[tuco]

It can be fixed!
Yep, I live in Sandy.
PM me.

[tuco]

Shoot us an email (info @ on3pskis.com). We can send you some raw materials to fix it up. Red bases are 3-4 years old so don't have any of that, but can supply same material in green + edge.

Essentially you want to:
1) Cut off base +/- about 2cm past the further edge of the damage point. Use some sort of guide for the cut. A rectangle is ok but something with a curve will be stronger. Make sure cut is clean. Remove that base material once cut with a screw driver.
2) Figure out extent of edge damage. Anything with any sort of delam should go. Then cut the edge off past the damaged area by around 5mm per side with a Dremel or hack saw. You should now have a ski with removed base & removed edge, but everything that remained is structurally intact.
3) Prep the edge to fit the shape of the ski. This might require a bit of tweaking with pliers. You want to bevel the edges of the existing edge and the new edge at a 45 degree angle so they sit on top of each other (so not straight 90 degree match).
4) For epoxy, we recommend West System G-flex. New edge is prepped for bonding. Use C-Clamps to hold it in place and let cure for 24 hours. There is a notch built into the construction of the ski for the teeth to sit in, so it is will be clear how it should sit. That said, you might have some existing epoxy/VDS/Glass you need to knock down or remove to get the edge flush against the sidewall.
5) Once edge is reset, use the new base material to put in a base weld. Use same epoxy. New piece of base should be trimmed to an extra fit. Apply epoxy, base, clamp with c-clamps & good pressure. Use a piece of flat steel to equalize pressure.
6) If there are any gaps in the base weld, fill them with epoxy or a P-tex gun.
7) Grind the base and edges to make sure they are smooth and flush. Refinish bases & edges. Detune and ski.

I would recommend skiing with the replaced edge on the outside of the edge going forward.

Also - re: shop techs. This is a pretty standard ski repair at this point. I wouldn't put a lot of stock in a tech who balks at a repair like this.

Hope that helps.

Few things:
1-Try to save edge first
Unless the edge is just mangled(and its hard to tell from pics), sometimes the better repair is to rebend the edge to shape, clean it up and reglue. If/when you cut and replace an edge, you essentially have 2 cracked edges, which creates a 'hinge', hard to keep that particular area sealed up. Also, I disagree that if it has delammed that it must be removed.

2-A rectangular patch will be just as strong as one cut on a curve. Just set it up to remove the base thats damaged. I have old skis that have patches within patches.

3-Cutting a replacement edge at 45 is protocol here. Essentially its a scarf joint compared to a butt joint(straight cut). But those 45s should be cut it such a way as to the direction of ski travel ie. don't have pointy edge pointing forward.

4-Always cut your patch and base at the same time if you want that thing to fit like a die cut.

5-If at all possible, lay it all up at the same time. I done this repair a lot and I have only had one repair that took multiple layups.

6-Patch and weld are 2 different things. This is patch territory all the way. A weld will not hold up here(as evidenced by OP's picture). You do not want to try to weld any gaps in the patch with a weld, the heat is not good for the cured repair. Especially with associated edge damage! Which is why you want to cut them at the same time.

7-You want to work the new base and/or edge by hand w/ files and scrapers. Color edge with sharpie and work it down, its not hard. Just grinding it will produce to much heat and once again, weaken repair.

There are lots of shops that don't do these kinds of repairs. Shop I worked at was one of the few in SLC and we had other shops sending these repairs to us. Even the snowboard shops. Shitty repair work is the exact reason I started the 'fix your own fucking edge compression' thread in the first place.

[tuco]

Evidence of base patch toughness. Patch within a patch. The marks on sidewall and base are where a edge replacement is, it's 10"S long with 18" base patch that held up to a rock hit that required another patch. 0 screws in the replaced edge.

[Vitamin I]

Thanks to both Iggy & tuco for all the details.

Soon I will be trying these repairs for my first time, on skis now demoted to rock/early-season status...so I guess my repairs will just get re-broken again soon thereafter, haha.

.

[SumJongGuy]

When you're finished, always keep that repaired ski on the right boot so the repaired edge is on the pinky toe outside edge instead of the big toe inside edge when pushing..

[iggyskier]

Just some additional comments:

Few things:
1-Try to save edge first
Unless the edge is just mangled(and its hard to tell from pics), sometimes the better repair is to rebend the edge to shape, clean it up and reglue. If/when you cut and replace an edge, you essentially have 2 cracked edges, which creates a 'hinge', hard to keep that particular area sealed up. Also, I disagree that if it has delammed that it must be removed.

My take here is it depends on the state of the edge and its ability to rebond within the ski. Most of the edges I see come with a ton of water damage or rust, which just isn't great to bond to. We actually do leave edge on when we can, but we also re-sandblast the edge before it goes back in the ski (both top and bottom) as best we can. So my suggestion on setting in new edge depends on the state of the edge remaining on the ski and the assumption that most people won't have the ability to properly prep the existing edge to go back in the skis. New edge comes prepped for bonding already.

As you can see in this photo of an edge in process of being fixed, the pre and post sandblasted state is pretty different and we've had a lot better results repairing skis with the edge blasted.



One other important note here - most of the skis we have come our way with this type of damage are from rail skiing. So we're talking kids who don't detune their edges, slide one one for months straight, never fix the small cracks when they form, and completely destroy one edge (often times without a single crack in the other three) and continue to ski like this, allowing water to cause a lot of damage to the skis. Edges are rusted, composites are fucked, etc. Usually just a mess.

We don't see a ton of edge cracking from rock impacts come back (luckily) so my experience with them it just more limited and if fixed quickly, I suspect the internal water-related damage is much less substantial (making it easier to get the existing edge to rebond). We also are just really short on time, so the time I have available to fix skis is limited, so, again, my experience here is somewhat limited.

To give you an idea of the shape we'll get skis in...

You can see edges still pretty square (so never detuned for rails). A lot of separation in the layers, water damage in the ski.


Fun times.


At this point, the composites are toast so we'll just cut them out, build an epoxy dam to fill the space, then put a base patch on top of this. Sometimes with an edge, usually not, because if they are hitting rails, really no point in putting the edge back in.


From here, if we are not resetting an edge, we'll attach a dam to the sidewall and fill the space with epoxy + filler so that it is flush with the bottom of the core (to fill the space of the edge). Then we'll just base patch over and refinish the base.


So yeah. Normally what we are seeing is just mass water damage over the edge length taking the brunt of the force when people are hitting rails. That is the lens I normally see these repairs through.

2-A rectangular patch will be just as strong as one cut on a curve. Just set it up to remove the base thats damaged. I have old skis that have patches within patches.

We've done both without issue. Probably just the ski designer in me that tries to avoid any square lines going across the ski. I definitely defer here, as you have a lot more experience fixing these than me. Just stating what we've tried to do with the limited experience we have.

3-Cutting a replacement edge at 45 is protocol here. Essentially its a scarf joint compared to a butt joint(straight cut). But those 45s should be cut it such a way as to the direction of ski travel ie. don't have pointy edge pointing forward.

Important detail I didn't include.

4-Always cut your patch and base at the same time if you want that thing to fit like a die cut.

Will save you a lot of time. I've had to hand trim more than a few and it is a lot easier if you have a base to trace off of. One thing here is to make sure when removing the base you don't damage it too badly. It should be fairly easy to pop off without damaging the base too much.

5-If at all possible, lay it all up at the same time. I done this repair a lot and I have only had one repair that took multiple layups.

The only thing I've run into here - trying to teach others in here to do these - is on larger repairs it can be difficult for people to keep the edge flush while you are setting in the base patch. Smaller job is easier, but as you can see from the photos above, sometimes we're asked to lay in a lot of edge. Again, we're just ski builders and not doing this frequently, so our experience here is limited though. I'd make the call as for steps depending on what I was seeing in the ski.

6-Patch and weld are 2 different things. This is patch territory all the way. A weld will not hold up here(as evidenced by OP's picture). You do not want to try to weld any gaps in the patch with a weld, the heat is not good for the cured repair. Especially with associated edge damage! Which is why you want to cut them at the same time.

Just a vernacular error on my part. Never worked in a shop so I suspect the terms we use internally are somewhat parochial. We've just always called a base patch a base weld, and it seems base weld a base fill. Everything I am talking about above is a patch (and we'll just have to change our terms going forward).

As you stated, as long as you are cut accurately, patch should be tight and the epoxy in the patch will fill up any excess space. For what it is worth, we have filled small sections with a P-tex gun without an issue though.

7-You want to work the new base and/or edge by hand w/ files and scrapers. Color edge with sharpie and work it down, its not hard. Just grinding it will produce to much heat and once again, weaken repair.

Definitely agree go slow here. We also normally hand blend edges with a file, but every ski we've put a patch in we've sent back through our factory finishing process to refinish the bases. No problem yet doing that.

Just my additional thoughts.

One big comment on anything where water is getting in the ski. Fix it quick and issues stays small. Let it ride and good luck. Especially in any skis hitting rails, fixing small cracks right when they occur will significantly extent the life of the skis.

[tuco]

Just some additional comments:



My take here is it depends on the state of the edge and its ability to rebond within the ski. Most of the edges I see come with a ton of water damage or rust, which just isn't great to bond to. We actually do leave edge on when we can, but we also re-sandblast the edge before it goes back in the ski (both top and bottom) as best we can. So my suggestion on setting in new edge depends on the state of the edge remaining on the ski and the assumption that most people won't have the ability to properly prep the existing edge to go back in the skis. New edge comes prepped for bonding already.

As you can see in this photo of an edge in process of being fixed, the pre and post sandblasted state is pretty different and we've had a lot better results repairing skis with the edge blasted.



One other important note here - most of the skis we have come our way with this type of damage are from rail skiing. So we're talking kids who don't detune their edges, slide one one for months straight, never fix the small cracks when they form, and completely destroy one edge (often times without a single crack in the other three) and continue to ski like this, allowing water to cause a lot of damage to the skis. Edges are rusted, composites are fucked, etc. Usually just a mess.

We don't see a ton of edge cracking from rock impacts come back (luckily) so my experience with them it just more limited and if fixed quickly, I suspect the internal water-related damage is much less substantial (making it easier to get the existing edge to rebond). We also are just really short on time, so the time I have available to fix skis is limited, so, again, my experience here is somewhat limited.

To give you an idea of the shape we'll get skis in...

You can see edges still pretty square (so never detuned for rails). A lot of separation in the layers, water damage in the ski.


Fun times.


At this point, the composites are toast so we'll just cut them out, build an epoxy dam to fill the space, then put a base patch on top of this. Sometimes with an edge, usually not, because if they are hitting rails, really no point in putting the edge back in.


From here, if we are not resetting an edge, we'll attach a dam to the sidewall and fill the space with epoxy + filler so that it is flush with the bottom of the core (to fill the space of the edge). Then we'll just base patch over and refinish the base.


So yeah. Normally what we are seeing is just mass water damage over the edge length taking the brunt of the force when people are hitting rails. That is the lens I normally see these repairs through.



We've done both without issue. Probably just the ski designer in me that tries to avoid any square lines going across the ski. I definitely defer here, as you have a lot more experience fixing these than me. Just stating what we've tried to do with the limited experience we have.



Important detail I didn't include.



Will save you a lot of time. I've had to hand trim more than a few and it is a lot easier if you have a base to trace off of. One thing here is to make sure when removing the base you don't damage it too badly. It should be fairly easy to pop off without damaging the base too much.



The only thing I've run into here - trying to teach others in here to do these - is on larger repairs it can be difficult for people to keep the edge flush while you are setting in the base patch. Smaller job is easier, but as you can see from the photos above, sometimes we're asked to lay in a lot of edge. Again, we're just ski builders and not doing this frequently, so our experience here is limited though. I'd make the call as for steps depending on what I was seeing in the ski.



Just a vernacular error on my part. Never worked in a shop so I suspect the terms we use internally are somewhat parochial. We've just always called a base patch a base weld, and it seems base weld a base fill. Everything I am talking about above is a patch (and we'll just have to change our terms going forward).

As you stated, as long as you are cut accurately, patch should be tight and the epoxy in the patch will fill up any excess space. For what it is worth, we have filled small sections with a P-tex gun without an issue though.



Definitely agree go slow here. We also normally hand blend edges with a file, but every ski we've put a patch in we've sent back through our factory finishing process to refinish the bases. No problem yet doing that.

Just my additional thoughts.

One big comment on anything where water is getting in the ski. Fix it quick and issues stays small. Let it ride and good luck. Especially in any skis hitting rails, fixing small cracks right when they occur will significantly extent the life of the skis.

Yes, rust removal is key. I have to grind it, sand it, scrape it, but it definitely gets removed(although I am going to just glue a delam on my Resuscitation 11's, just to see how the g-flex holds up. I know there is rust under that one, but I'm curious. If it doesn't, I can fix it after). That blasted edge looks money tho!

Yeah, on my patches, the leading and trailing edge of the patches are cut on the bias, not perpendicular. On R11, you will notice the ends of the patch are rounded, so I'm with ya there.My thought here is that I prefer to preserve as much original material as possible. Any delammed base gets removed for sure. Not all coreshots are created equal and curved patch on some can end up removing quite a bit of good material. Most end up faceted.
Ive done the hand trim method and it sucks. Also eats time. Its why I spent the time to make a quick little template on R11 for the patch in the middle of the ski.
Cutting the rounds was a bitch too. But only the fit is holding this patch in place here
No way could have I trace cut around a presized patch and have it fit like that, other than luck, which isn't reproducible.

I hear you on the edge placement. I didn't like my results in the 2 stage layup process. I did it the same way. I dry run all repairs. On the edge replacements with damaged sidewalls and edge wandering, I carefully shim the edge where it needed to be(up/down plane). As far as in/out plane, snug up clamps on the patch, but not tight, take screwdriver and hammer and TAP the edge toward the core up to the basematerial and tighten clamps!
I have overheated a repair before and compromised it. Even if its not noticeable, it can weaken it. Filling a patch is one thing, but if its over an edge replacement, especially the splice, I try to keep the heat down as much as possible.
As far as epoxy fill, as tough as that shit is, the abrasiveness of snow will eat that shit away!

Yes, when I worked in the shop, always a machine touch up after hand working. Was just stating the flushing up shouldn't be done by machine because of heat.

[PlayItLeo]

This is some quality tech talk! Well done, Iggy and Tuco.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[DerekPersson]

Wow! Thanks for the responses fellas, a lot more than what I was even expecting. This is good to know that there is some hope. I don't have a lot of the tools necessary but I'll see what I can do in the next few months. Cheers!

[homebrewd]

Great read and knowledge dropped here. @ tuco and Iggy do you generally match the OEM base material? Just curious if you fill with 4001/2001/UHMWPE and if the material used really matters at that point.

[kid-kapow]

great thread!

A slight hijack question - in the case of internal rust on the edges - is that something that can be felt when skiing?

background for the question:
My first pair of skis when i got back to skis after 15yrs on snowboards was a pair of Lib Tech Freeride Horsepowers. I never really clicked with them, in spite of really liking their bigger siblings (pow 181s) and really liking their shapes. I tried them again last year after making the switch to first newer libs and then ON3Ps, and by then using the Freerides on groomers was pure and utter shait. Turning right they felt fine where i could carve to my hearts content. Turning left, they felt vague and as they were about to loose their edge constantly. Both skis exhibited the same behavior as the outside ski on an inside edge when turning left. 1 run later my wrens were back out.

The edges on both are identical in terms of sharpness/tune as far as i know, so i have no good explanation as to what causes said issue other than something internal in the skis being out of whack. There is no visible damage on the skis, but there are some tiny bumps the entire length of the skis just next to the edges (i do not have the skis close at hand nor have i taken photos of it previously).

So, any input as to what caused this would be greatly appreciated

[homebrewd]

Could be the edge angles are inconsistent? First thing that comes to mind at least.

[kid-kapow]

That might very well be, but it seems a bit odd that only the left side of both skis have off edges. I will have to check. Inconsistent edge angles still doesn't explain the bumps though.

Funnily enough they are the only ski i have ever let/paid somebody else to tune, so it might be that something went awry during that procedure due to inexperience with the ski's magne traction edges, or that i messed something up later on. You are probably right though.

I might as well try to fix em, because as is I cannot sell them nor even use them as rock skis. Found this guide that seems pretty good, so why not give it a go eh

https://www.racewax.com/edge-tuning/

thanks for the input!

[iggyskier]

Great read and knowledge dropped here. @ tuco and Iggy do you generally match the OEM base material? Just curious if you fill with 4001/2001/UHMWPE and if the material used really matters at that point.

I only do repairs on ON3P, so I am just using stock production 4001 base we use on all our skis. That said, given most patches are pretty small, I can't see any issues using a 2001 patch in a 4001 base, or vice versa.

[detrusor]

Are the skis Republican? That would explain it.


Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

[tuco]

great thread!

A slight hijack question - in the case of internal rust on the edges - is that something that can be felt when skiing?

background for the question:
My first pair of skis when i got back to skis after 15yrs on snowboards was a pair of Lib Tech Freeride Horsepowers. I never really clicked with them, in spite of really liking their bigger siblings (pow 181s) and really liking their shapes. I tried them again last year after making the switch to first newer libs and then ON3Ps, and by then using the Freerides on groomers was pure and utter shait. Turning right they felt fine where i could carve to my hearts content. Turning left, they felt vague and as they were about to loose their edge constantly. Both skis exhibited the same behavior as the outside ski on an inside edge when turning left. 1 run later my wrens were back out.

The edges on both are identical in terms of sharpness/tune as far as i know, so i have no good explanation as to what causes said issue other than something internal in the skis being out of whack. There is no visible damage on the skis, but there are some tiny bumps the entire length of the skis just next to the edges (i do not have the skis close at hand nor have i taken photos of it previously).

So, any input as to what caused this would be greatly appreciated

Bases are delamming over edge. This can cause a railed feeling ski and can also be dangerous as water gets under delam, freezes, ice propagates from delam on edges. Can cause ski to suddenly stop because you have an iceball rooted to your ski. I had to quit telemarking because of a knee injury I suffered from this condition! Its no fuckin joke
I think it's caused by insufficient material wetting. When ski is put in press and heated there is not enough epoxy to flow into base/edge interface.
Or insufficient sidewall/edge prep. Edges/sidewall on mine bond seems good

given most patches are pretty small, I can't see any issues using a 2001 patch in a 4001 base, or vice versa.

Yep

[tuco]

Thanks to DP for his patience.
Thanks to Iggy for being the man. Sending me supplies and answering my questions on his day off to make this happen. Just another reason to go ON3P--customer support yo!


Straightening edge(forgot to take a sideview pic pre straightening--there is one in D's 1st post).
Attachment 269026Attachment 269027Attachment 269028
Turn base material upside down and use opposing edge to get the sidecut on the edge side of your patch(white strip is the trimmin).
Attachment 269029
Attachment 269030
Cutting base material
Attachment 269031
Patch pressed in no glue
Attachment 269032
Rust removed from edge tabs, inner lip and bottom of edge. Old sublimated paint removed from core. VDS cut and placed to bridge crack and aid adhesion
Attachment 269034
This is where I dry ran the layup and couldn't quite get edge crack to line up. I put a clamp from sidewall to sidewall and everything came together. Turns out the sidewall was slightly delammed as well. Can't stress dry running these kind of repairs enough. You don't want surprises when you have epoxy mixed.
Attachment 269035
Cleanup up sidewall and base
Attachment 269037
Attachment 269038
Ready to hate fuck the mountain again. I'm

[tuco]

Not sure why pictures were lost, but I'll fix later.
Bump