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  1. #726
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    No longer somewhere in Idaho
    My UL gpo veneer will remain with me until they get hung on the wall. Absolutely amazing skis.
    I hope that the smaller builders all settle into a solid and lasting place in the industry, it's such a great alternative to big brands, if you know what you want and appreciate the quality.

    Sent from my SM-G960U using TGR Forums mobile app
    Gravity always wins...

  2. #727
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    I liked the S7 then the squad the the BG. I laugh every time I see someone grab an air tip S7. Thatís an example of tweaking a design in a terrible way. But they sell a lot to the masses. Itís gotta be tough when you know how to build good skis but people just buy the gimmicky mass produced and then wonder why their tips fold on them and they canít keep up.

    Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums
    I need to go to Utah.
    Yeah, Utah. It's wedged in between Wyoming and Nevada. You've seen pictures of it, right?

    So after 15 years we finally made it to Utah.....

    Thanks BCSAR and POWMOW Ski Patrol for rescues

    8, 17, 13, 18, 16, 18, 20, 19, 16

    2018/2019 (24/32)

  3. #728
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Park City
    I absolutely love my custom carbon/nylon GPOís. Mounted -1. The new Lhasa fats are pretty great as well. I think Iíll be keeping both of those. Do wish I had bought my GPO a little shorter...theyíd have AT bindings on them if I had.

    Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums
    I rip the groomed on tele gear

  4. #729
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Quote Originally Posted by The Artist Formerly Known as Leavenworth Skier View Post
    Why I haven't bought Praxis:
    Graphics mostly suck unless you layer veneer or something, which gets expensive. (Ie the Praxilhasa Norse & 2funky have)
    A lot of the designs/shapes are meh and still the original design. Not the continual improvement/refinement that has been happening with brands like ON3P.
    Too many choices. Rx? Or Freeride? Or GPO?
    No clear collections of skis to differentiate models by use/deisgn. (freeride, freestyle, touring, dad skis, etc.)
    Too many choices within the choices (+10 -10, flex, layup, weight core) It's confusing.
    Mount points sketch me out as they seem to be engineered too far forward... thread after thread of multiple remounts, complaints of tip dive. Multiple mags I know have had quietly had skiabilty issues with Praxis skis and have chosen to stay quiet about it... but I haven't been that impressed by feedback.
    The ridiculously sharp tunes. I should not need to detune/retune a ski out of wrapper designed for freeride skiing.
    Complaints of tip dive on skis that line up with similar skis in the category that don't have any issue with tip dive. Heck, how many killer FWT runs has Tabke blown because of tip dive?

    Just my .02 cents
    Doesn't matter, you would have sold them by now anyways....
    Common sense. So rare today in America it's almost like having a superpower.

  5. #730
    Join Date
    Apr 2014

    2018-19 Praxis Skis Info and Resource Thread

    Lots of stuff to comment on, but Keithís mentioned a number of times in the past he never set out to make a lot of money. He makes skis because he enjoys it and he enjoys making the best skis he can for himself and his customers. TGR is pretty much his target consumer group, because a lot of us do care about core, flex, graphic, veneer, carbon changes and know enough to choose that + the model that suits them. My Quixoteís in a heavy/carbon/veneer layup are my favorite resort ski. That would not be true in enduro/nylon layup. But for someone else the opposite might be true.

    As everyone is well aware Keith has always bent over backwards to try and give his customers exactly what they want, and at pretty insane prices. Full custom skis from other companies costs $1k plus, even partial customs (ie different top sheet graphic ON3P) cost $900+

    Most of us have been getting full customs from Keith for ~$500 or less with referrals and discount codes during his sales. Doesnít surprise me it hasnít ultimately been sustainable, but Iím pretty thankful I got the custom skis I did at those prices.

    The comments about top sheet graphics surprise me, I canít imagine there isnít a graphic in the library that could suit pretty much any personís tastes. I think a lot of them are way better looking than 90% of the skis out there, besides a few (Moment, some ON3P come to mind, though I also really dislike some of those companies topsheet designs currently). Course I also strongly dislike some of Praxis graphics. Veneer obviously are dope. But to each their own.

    Unfortunately to keep the doors open I think at anything other than a very small scale you have to tap into the mainstream market to survive. Moment, ON3P, even Icelantic have done so by partnering with big online shops (Backcountry, Evo) and some bigger chain stores. Blister and some of the other review sites like outdoor gear lab also provide a lot of publicity to skiers like the TGR crowd who just donít happen to be on online forums.

    -Personally I think the best way forward would be to focus on a core lineup (2 touring skis, 1-2 park, 2 all mountain, 1 big mountain, 1 or 2 freeride, protests). Only offer them in the layup and flex that makes sense and a crowd pleasing graphic. Maybe with veneer as a brand distinguisher.

    I think trying to focus on making some park skis and getting some talented athletes to rep them could be a great idea too. I think thatís helped ON3P a ton- the park market is pretty big and populated by young guys who will bother to look up stuff online rather than just walk into the local shop. Keithís skis are some of/the most durable Iíve owned and would really have and edge (ha!) over the big brands in that department for park.

    -Offer standard lineup skis for sale in local shops, try to partner with online stores and big chains. May take a few seasons.

    -Send a bunch of stock skis out for reviews at blister, other online sites. Go to SIA. Some ski magazines would be good but Iím sure big $$$.

    -Offer custom ski runs in the off seasons at full price ~$900. Thatís what theyíre worth IMO. Maybe with limited options. Perhaps offer custom run/experimental skis when a group gets together like we did on the Lhasaís and 192 protests

    My .02 - Regardless I will always support Kieth however heís making skis. My custom Veneer protests, custom veneer Quixoteís, and veneer Lhasa pow fat collabs, and presumably my new custom veneer piste jibs can only be pried out of my cold dead hands.

    Iíve had and enjoyed OG protests, powderboards, gpos, and concepts as well. I regret selling the concepts - ski does not get as much love as it should. Pretty perfect one ski quiver IMO.

    Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

  6. #731
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Iím 2 for 4 for buying and keeping Praxis skis, both of the skis Iím keeping were custom. I was woefully under prepared to build custom skis and Keith helped a ton. What I didnít realize is that all I really wanted was custom top sheets and bases. The Super Freerides took forever to figure out, multiple detunes, multiple remounts, and they now are good for me, but it shouldnít take that long. I tried to sell them multiple times, and it would of saved me a bunch if work and effort. Similar story with my Protests.

    Itís a cool idea, but the long term viability is tough. I wish Keith the best, and if we get another shot at custom orders, Iíll be in for another pair, but itís a tough road.

    Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

  7. #732
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    fwiw custom orders still being taken at praxis, just the link is lower on the page...

  8. #733
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Just a thought, but i think that Praxis (or any "boutique" brand) should have a signature aesthetic feature that appears on all skis the same way that moment has squared off tips and tails. Its free marketing and always gets asked about on chairlifts or in lift lines. It could be as simple as a all skis having a bright orange base, or all skis having a built in carry system (thatll apeal to the rich folk out there), All skis have a variation of veneer topsheets, etc.

    Its easy to get lost in the hordes of other skis out there if your skis look exactly the same as everyone elses (at least to the untrained eye), and then you have to rely on word of mouth from notoriously tight lipped core bros who only buy at bro discount, and the odd dentist who buys at full retail. To stand out as the little guy, it really helps to have a big budget, or a defining aesthetic feature IMO.

    But then again, who said that these small shops want to grow into producing 10,000+ pairs of skis per year. Im just happy that i finally scooped a pair of protests this fall before they were all gone.

  9. #734
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Maybe their signature aesthetic should be pink? This is so random, but maybe helps Praxis blow up on the gram

    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  10. #735
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Quote Originally Posted by galibier_numero_un View Post
    If Keith listened to most of these suggestions, he'd be in worse shape than he is. 195cm - do you really think there are more than a handful of people who would buy them? What about the Supergoat? One run and done, right?

    If 20 of you opened your wallets and went to Keith, I'm sure he would have built a long missile for you.

    I'll bet most of the critics here weigh well North of 220 Lbs. Cut your beer consumption.

    Stagnant development? Thank goodness the GPO remains unchanged. It's my favorite ski ever ... lucky design or not.

    Read the debate about whether the Lhasa should have changed at all - people were on the fence. How old is that design? Change a seminal design just for the helluvit?

    Agreed about ambiguous mount points.

    I also agree that the +10/-10 was a mistake. These need to be a fully tested model rather than a "what the hell, let's try it" option. It should have been more like how Moment treats the Wildcat (two widths) or ON3P does the Woodsman & Wren.

    Can you imagine a fleshed out GPO family in 96/106/116? It would make much more sense (less buyer confusion) than say, having a Pste Jib (even if the PJ were merely renamed) along with some random 106 ski in the lineup.

    Topsheets & ON3P: Other than recent Billy Goats (since 15/16), the Steeples, and the plain top, their skis make me want to get out a can of Krylon. They make me want to puke. No accounting for taste, I suppose ;-)

    Ski design competency - the real problem lies in the difficulty in demoing. No ski can be all things to all people, and several designs were intended to be niche skis.

    Then there's the TGR Bro factor - ignoring some phenomenal skis.

    For example, I picked up a pair of EXPs from @grinch last Spring - a completely ignored ski when discussions of Zero G 85s come up - amazing stability, maneuerability, and versatility in an 88mm ski.

    Lastly (in honor of Alpy) ... Praxis Rx.

    ... Thom
    Supergoat had 2 preorder cycles w/ premade customs in stock most of the last 2 seasons. Looks like SG is also still available on website for $799. Must have sold enough that there has been rumblings of a MegaGoat possibility.

  11. #736
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Quote Originally Posted by PlayItLeo View Post
    Maybe their signature aesthetic should be pink? This is so random, but maybe helps Praxis blow up on the gram

    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Could play off the vocallocalbro thing and throw a "PNW Grown", "ColoRadBro", etc regional branding on the tips and tails.

    Actually, heres a good one: put full song lyrics on the tails so that people behind you have something to read in the liftlines and would get them singing/humming. I think people would find that pretty cool. Def some copyright issues with that, but that would be pretty interesting. Could easily market to different demographics with that one.

  12. #737
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Assume y'all have seen this new experimental ski now for order:

    Anyone gonna get one? Sounds intriguing. I'd like that design/layup in 187, 104 underfoot, with a touch more tail rocker. Please and thanks!

    I bet the next experimental is a big mountain ski.

    I hope Praxis figures out this next phase, because their good skis are superlative.

    FS: crampons, lightweight winter down sleeping bag, and stuff

  13. #738
    Join Date
    Dec 2014
    Colorado Front Range
    Quote Originally Posted by tuco View Post
    Supergoat had 2 preorder cycles w/ premade customs in stock most of the last 2 seasons. Looks like SG is also still available on website for $799. Must have sold enough that there has been rumblings of a MegaGoat possibility.
    Yup, seems as if Scott can generate a bit more demand for a batch like this than Keith can (for whatever reason).

    One could argue that the Lhasa run was a PM gear thing and not a Praxis thing, which would leave only the Wootest 1.0/2.0 (which is still remarkable).

    I wonder if the relative reluctance to put together a run of some sort of Praxis missile here is merely a numbers game (ON3P having a larger pool to draw from), ON3P's reputation for chargers, or something else (FUD about the end result, for example)?.

    ... Thom
    Galibier Design
    crafting technology in service of music

  14. #739
    Join Date
    Oct 2017
    Not to beat a dead horse here but: What brings home the bacon for ON3P is Jeffreys and Magnus', where BGs seem fairly steadily in demand too. I remember Iggy stating that four models took up the majority of their sales. I have no idea what those skis are for Praxis, but they sure as hell are not Protests

    I also agree with the points raised concerning both graphics and that signature design on their skis could be helpful. Not to keep bringing up ON3P, but Iggy mentioned that the green ON3P bases was one of the better moves they made in terms of brand recognition (thanks Apple).

    Also, in terms of gaphics - go conservative for the skis that you want to sell the most of. Most of Praxis' offerings this year might look stellar for the right person, but the less busy designs are for sure the most likely to appeal to lots of people. The touring range look fantastic imho, while a lot of the other skis are probably a bit more polarizing. After looking more closely at the range I too think a lot of them actually look pretty damned good - the 9D for one look amazing. I mean

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    I am unsure how long it would take for me to grow tired of it, and the second hand value would prob be very low - but damned they look good. A Protest with that graphic is pretty enticing I have not noticed how good this design looks before tonight having just spotted the UFO and though wtf? I sincerly doubt that that most 40+ males will ski on a ski with that graphic though, though I could be wrong.

    The ON3P/Moment formula of strategic presence in certain shops + online sales as the main revenue channel seems to work for them. Perhaps by offering less choices, tidying up the graphics department a bit and by organizing the range in more easily understood ski segments could generate more sales.

    Both ON3P and Moment's range are really easy to understand. For instance ON3P:
    - park: different widths (dw) of a design concept with underfoot detuning
    - freestyle: different widths of a design concept that prefer a centered stance
    - all mountain: different widths of a design concept that can be used with a centered stance or driven from the shovels
    - freeride: different widths of a design concept that prefer to be driven
    - powder: different widths, similar design

    Yeah, I took ON3P a long time to get there, but the range makes a ton of sense and is very, very easy to understand with a minimum of explanation. The same can be said for Moment's - that is, their range is even easier to understand. With Praxis, well - sorting them according to width just adds to the confusion for me. Understanding the range takes a bit more for the outsider, while most Praxis fans probably understand it a lot more easily than I do.

    Anyway, while my first outing on these was not a great success, I still think they are perhaps the nicest looking skis I have ever seen in person. Sorry to post them yet again.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    And yes - the sale is back on for those that missed out above. So good for us, not so good for Praxis. This should be the time of year when they sell the most skis no? I hope they will be able to pull through. These sales must wreck havoc on their margins, even if they are able to shift stock.

    sorry to be long winded, especially as I seem to remember people mentioning that Keith doesn't frequent TGR
    Last edited by kid-kapow; 11-08-2019 at 02:18 PM.

  15. #740
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Quote Originally Posted by Muggydude View Post
    I regret selling the concepts - ski does not get as much love as it should. Pretty perfect one ski quiver IMO.
    I fully endorse this statement.

    john (and all the best to Keith moving forward)

  16. #741
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    For all of you who have wanted to try a skinny Protest.

  17. #742
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Quote Originally Posted by travel_to_ski View Post
    For all of you who have wanted to try a skinny Protest.
    Those are on KSL as well

  18. #743
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    New Mexico

    2018-19 Praxis Skis Info and Resource Thread

    Daaaaaamn, thatís a burl ass build! Donít know if that makes a lot of since to me but quite the find for sure!
    Fear, Doubt, Disbelief, you have to let it all go. Free your mind!

  19. #744
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    in the trench
    Bet theyre awesome

    Sent from my SM-G950W using TGR Forums mobile app

  20. #745
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Little e-mail from Keith and crew:

    Renovation Sale Phase 2

    ALL SKIS 40% OFF
    To test the waters on this new approach, of great skis at great prices sold factory direct at wholesale pricing. We are discounting all inventory by 40%, that’s right, wholesale pricing direct to the skier, shipped from the factory with a little saw dust in every box. I don’t know, maybe you’d rather pay more? Or get less? We just can’t be sure anymore… so we are going to test out this new pricing from now until CYBER MONDAY.

    Go get 'em!!
    In search of the elusive artic powder weasel ...

  21. #746
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    The Other Side
    I was happy to read in that email, that there is still hope for a revised version of the custom build approach. With all potential caveats, e.g. (-10, +10 might not work, you might build it too soft, too stiff, topsheet is not what you hoped blah, blah) I still find it so much fun. It changed my whole perspective on what it meant to buy skis. I've been lucky with my builds, e.g. never bought something I didn't enjoy and over the years, I've learned a lot about how flex and width and materials impact a ski feel. I am definitely much more educated.

    Secondly I think Thom mentioned it back a page or two, but I really like the idea of focusing on building and testing slight tweaks to a fewer number of the raddest shapes at different waist widths (a little more like ON3P. It would take a lot of the guinea pig stress off the customer, and give you piece of mind that whatever miner tweaks that were required to a move a shape into a different waist width were addressed.

    As far as marketing/classifying the skis another route that might work is classifying the skis the way a lot of us do for our quivers, e.g. New Snow, Day after, Hard Days, Tour e.g

    Storms Days: Protest 128, Quixote 116, GPO 116 . Concept 116
    Day or Two After: GPO 108, Quixote 108, Concept 108, Piste Jib 109
    Harder Days: Piste Jib 99, 9D8. SnD, Park n Ride
    Tour: Protest Tour 118, Backcountry, Yeti, EXP

    Anyways just some thoughts. Hope Praxis pulls through this time. They've had a huge impact on my snow sliding activities

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