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  1. #2226
    Join Date
    Jun 2018
    Location
    Portland, OR
    Posts
    945
    Quote Originally Posted by powder_to_the_people View Post
    I remember Keith telling me that the flex of his skis are consistent across models, in that he uses a machine to measure the flex of his skis. But I agree that the flex profile is going to be different for each model, so I'm not sure how his machine works exactly. Also, why does Keith never come on the forum to answer his fanboys' questions?
    Because weíre all extremely annoying.

  2. #2227
    Join Date
    Jan 2019
    Location
    Mid-tomahawk
    Posts
    1,174
    Quote Originally Posted by lucknau View Post
    Because we’re all extremely annoying.
    For real, I wouldn't want to deal with us.

    I am about to order a second pair of Protests though, once I decide which type of wood I want to go with for the veneer.

  3. #2228
    Join Date
    Mar 2020
    Posts
    150
    Quote Originally Posted by Wes Mantooth View Post
    Cool good to know. I'm really happy with the PB&J flex it holds up at speed in variable conditions but also plays and butters around nicely so sounds like stock #4 flex is the way to go. I'm thinking the standard layup will work fine too. I'm not in a maritime snowpack but should be just as good here in CO. Plus I can save some money that way. Now I just need to figure out which graphic to choose which I feel like is the hardest part of Praxis custom orders. I'm into the black snek

    The following is build information that Keith provided to me that I found very helpful and educational, you may find helpful with your order.

    "I think you are good to go without the carbon on the RX, especially because you ended up getting the veneer top. The veneer itself will reduce the ski to an ideal weight and i like what the wood veneer does for the feel of the skis on snow. The carbon does not add torsional rigidity in our application, however the wood veneer does. Really the carbon as you suggest is not a overly notable difference, especially in the way we use it because its a small amount of carbon blended with the glass."

    "We do a few different methods on the carbon glass mix. My preferred is to use a fiberglass, say 22 oz that has some of the glass strands replaced with carbon when its woven together. So every 10 strands will be carbon, or so. And essentially makes the fiberglass weight lower and replaces it with carbon. Or we will use a lightweight carbon layer and a lighter fiberglass as you suggested. So the result is the same flex rating on the ski for an enduro core or enduro carbon core option but the carbon one will end up being a few ounces lighter, generally about 3 oz's on the pair. As for feel or change to the ski, I'd say more pop on the skis with carbon, the reason is carbon wants to return to shape faster after being flexed so that translates into more pop or energy on the skis. The other notable difference is the initial part of the flex, so if you stand the skis up on end (tail) and grab the tip and shake it and let the ski flex you will notice that the carbon skis seem a bit stiffer in that initial flex, the fiberglass skis a bit floppier or spongy. So in that sense I think some feel the fiberglass is a damper feel, but I'm not sure it makes a huge difference on snow when skiing. Once you really flex the carbon ski it balances out and the glass kicks in and they feel similar, just that initial couple cm of flexing that has a different feel with the carbon addition.

    For the RX, really either build is suitable. I look to other aspects of the build and personal preference or experience with carbon fiber in skis to make the decision on what the best option is. For example if you are going with a wood veneer top the skis will be lighter so maybe no need to use carbon and save more weight, unless you want a lighter ski. If you were going with the nylon top and the fact that the RX is a pretty fat big ski, it might be good to use the carbon to save a few ounces on the build."

  4. #2229
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Your Mom's House
    Posts
    7,116
    Quote Originally Posted by powder_to_the_people View Post
    I remember Keith telling me that the flex of his skis are consistent across models, in that he uses a machine to measure the flex of his skis. But I agree that the flex profile is going to be different for each model, so I'm not sure how his machine works exactly. Also, why does Keith never come on the forum to answer his fanboys' questions?
    I asked about the methodology several years ago. This was in 2014, so the methodology may have changed since then. But here is what Keith told me at the time:

    "A little info on how we are measuring the flex. Probably easier to explain this way then a percentage but this could probably be translated into a %.

    We bend the ski with a piston applying X pressure. We measure all the skis with this pressure and we measure the distance of deflection. For each category we have come up with a range of expected deflection. This has been calibrated for different ski lengths by relating the skis bent curve to a radius. So we have developed a scale or table of numbers to relate flex and flex deflection under different desired flex and compare that to different length skis. This entire system really helped us to balance the flex and "feel" of a 170 cm and a 190 cm ski to be similar because they are bent to a comparable curve radius.

    Anyway. For each category the flex deflection range is 25 mm. So for example on a 187 Protest. The numbers are as follows.

    Medium = 152 mm is ideal category range of 139-165 mm
    Med/Stiff = 127 mm is ideal category range of 114-140

    So for your ski we were shooting for a 127 mm deflection. The normal target for error is + or - 5mm. When we measured industry skis models deviated 10 mm + between pairs and with some companies they deviated 10 mm between the left and right ski. We are typically within 2-3 mm from left to right ski and try to be within 1. The machine has room for error of a few mm as well."

  5. #2230
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Posts
    86
    Quote Originally Posted by HAB View Post

    I am about to order a second pair of Protests though, once I decide which type of wood I want to go with for the veneer.
    I was in the shop yesterday and Keith had some fantastic birdseye and karelian birch veneers not on the site that might be worth a phone call or email.

  6. #2231
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Posts
    86
    I popped in the factory yesterday and worked with Keith to build my second pair of Quixotes.

    First build is a
    - 182cm 4-flex,
    - enduro
    - carbon
    - veneer
    - mounted with kingpins on the line for touring

    Was my 1 ski touring quiver for 4 years and killed it everywhere except in super sun affected crusts where the asym I felt really struggled. Also in 2-3'+ storms it didn't float as much as I'd like.

    Have skied my Qs over 100 days now and ended up skiing them in the resort about 40% of the time so decided to build up a dedicated resort Q.

    Wanted the resort version to crush chop like a BG but be a little more playful and smeary than my current Q and WC. So the new build is:
    - 188cm
    - Will mount +2
    - Heavy hitter @ flex 3+
    - Carbon
    - Karelian birch veneer
    - Sierra Stone graphic (just the geometric line art in black. Super excited to see how this turns out)

    I was on the fence on going carbon again, but Keith felt it would give the pop off side hits natural features I was after while the slightly softer flex would allow me to press and smear two-footed, laid back slarves.

    Being able to walk in off the street and chat with a ski factory owner to custom build and fine tune a bomber, sick pair of skis is so f'ing dope. I honestly can't think of a better bang for the $ anywhere else in my life and never feel regret for spending more money with Keith even though I really don't need any more skis lol.

    Love Praxis!

  7. #2232
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Oregon
    Posts
    22
    Quote Originally Posted by Cars Suck View Post
    I popped in the factory yesterday and worked with Keith to build my second pair of Quixotes.

    First build is a
    - 182cm 4-flex,
    - enduro
    - carbon
    - veneer
    - mounted with kingpins on the line for touring

    Was my 1 ski touring quiver for 4 years and killed it everywhere except in super sun affected crusts where the asym I felt really struggled. Also in 2-3'+ storms it didn't float as much as I'd like.

    Have skied my Qs over 100 days now and ended up skiing them in the resort about 40% of the time so decided to build up a dedicated resort Q.

    Wanted the resort version to crush chop like a BG but be a little more playful and smeary than my current Q and WC. So the new build is:
    - 188cm
    - Will mount +2
    - Heavy hitter @ flex 3+
    - Carbon
    - Karelian birch veneer
    - Sierra Stone graphic (just the geometric line art in black. Super excited to see how this turns out)

    I was on the fence on going carbon again, but Keith felt it would give the pop off side hits natural features I was after while the slightly softer flex would allow me to press and smear two-footed, laid back slarves.

    Being able to walk in off the street and chat with a ski factory owner to custom build and fine tune a bomber, sick pair of skis is so f'ing dope. I honestly can't think of a better bang for the $ anywhere else in my life and never feel regret for spending more money with Keith even though I really don't need any more skis lol.

    Love Praxis!
    That's such a sweet build. total baja truck suspension style ski. What's your (or keiths) thoughts behind the +2 mount?

  8. #2233
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Posts
    86
    Thanks Flyingskiguy. It's been a while since I've been this excited for a new ski.

    Keith liked the idea of bumping up to 188cm for the extra float in deeper pow and as a more stable landing pad.

    We talked a lot about mount point and he said Drew, the Praxis Crew, and himself generally go forward / +2 so he was happy to hear and supportive of that move to keep the quickness on snow I love in the 182 and help it come around easier in the air.

    The move to 188 also meant even with the +2 I'd have a comfortable amount of ski out front for chop without it feeling slow in tight spots, trees, and park.

    Put's the mount at about the same back from center as my WC116, which I absolutely loved as a DD this year. Really can't wait to finally push a Q as hard as I want without the sketch touring bindings in the resort.

  9. #2234
    Join Date
    Nov 2016
    Posts
    766
    Quote Originally Posted by Cars Suck View Post
    Thanks Flyingskiguy. It's been a while since I've been this excited for a new ski.

    Keith liked the idea of bumping up to 188cm for the extra float in deeper pow and as a more stable landing pad.

    We talked a lot about mount point and he said Drew, the Praxis Crew, and himself generally go forward / +2 so he was happy to hear and supportive of that move to keep the quickness on snow I love in the 182 and help it come around easier in the air.

    The move to 188 also meant even with the +2 I'd have a comfortable amount of ski out front for chop without it feeling slow in tight spots, trees, and park.

    Put's the mount at about the same back from center as my WC116, which I absolutely loved as a DD this year. Really can't wait to finally push a Q as hard as I want without the sketch touring bindings in the resort.
    How are you expecting the forward mounted Q to be different from the big WC? Better in chop because of the HH core but otherwise ?

  10. #2235
    Join Date
    Oct 2016
    Location
    tahoe de chingao
    Posts
    760
    Quote Originally Posted by brundo View Post
    How are you expecting the forward mounted Q to be different from the big WC? Better in chop because of the HH core but otherwise ?
    As a 188 Q owner and 190 bibby lover - a +2 Q will be better in chop, slightly surfier when it does plane up, probably a bit less floaty / easier to sink tips on in light snow. My experience at -1 on the Q is that it breaks loose / slarves / pivots a hair easier than the bibby, at +2 I'd think that would be even more noticeable

  11. #2236
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    CO
    Posts
    2,216
    For those who have ordered customs in the past how do you specify a sub base design? Can you pick or does Keith just decide based on the selected topsheet? Seems like there's a set few that you see on most skis and then a few beautiful unicorn special ones like those wooden GPOs. I'm just doing the standard easy build but curious if that's something I can pick as well
    Quote Originally Posted by other grskier View Post
    well, in the three years i've been skiing i bet i can ski most anything those 'pro's' i listed can, probably

  12. #2237
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    CO
    Posts
    2,216
    Quote Originally Posted by Wes Mantooth View Post
    For those who have ordered customs in the past how do you specify a sub base design? Can you pick or does Keith just decide based on the selected topsheet? Seems like there's a set few that you see on most skis and then a few beautiful unicorn special ones like those wooden GPOs. I'm just doing the standard easy build but curious if that's something I can pick as well
    FWIW here's Keith's take on the base customization: "Currently we are running a simple Praxis logo in the tips of all the skis. We had done custom base options in the past but over time we've found that the graphic bases just do not hold up and are not as fast as our black base material. The black UHMW material we have specifically made for us and its stronger and faster than the material we are able to print graphics to. So for now we've decided to eliminate the base options and just go with a simple die cut logo in the tip"
    Quote Originally Posted by other grskier View Post
    well, in the three years i've been skiing i bet i can ski most anything those 'pro's' i listed can, probably

  13. #2238
    Join Date
    Jan 2019
    Location
    Mid-tomahawk
    Posts
    1,174
    Quote Originally Posted by Cars Suck View Post
    I was in the shop yesterday and Keith had some fantastic birdseye and karelian birch veneers not on the site that might be worth a phone call or email.
    Thanks! Order is in, with one of the non-standard veneers he has in right now. Very very excited.

    187 UL Protests
    Flex 3, -1 width
    Freak maple burl veneer, Powdah Snek White graphic
    Last edited by HAB; 06-24-2021 at 10:48 AM.

  14. #2239
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Montucky
    Posts
    1,609
    I ordered a +1 stiffness 192cm Protest with the stock base and core, but with the old Tsunami logo that I absolutely love. Iím a graphics guy, so the veneers didnít really appeal that much to me.

    In other news, that means I have an older 187cm protest that is begging to be used for a purpose like side country dedicated charger with beast bindings or the cast system.


    Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

  15. #2240
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    CO
    Posts
    2,216
    I just pulled the trigger on my first pair of Praxis - super pumped it's been a long time coming for me. Got the MVP 108 since based on my quiver and where I live it's the shape that will get the most use. Flex 4, Enduro, black snek topsheets. Will probably get some Protests in the future but I've been saying that for 10 years
    Quote Originally Posted by other grskier View Post
    well, in the three years i've been skiing i bet i can ski most anything those 'pro's' i listed can, probably

  16. #2241
    Join Date
    Dec 2014
    Location
    Colorado Front Range
    Posts
    4,346
    Quote Originally Posted by Wes Mantooth View Post
    FWIW here's Keith's take on the base customization: "Currently we are running a simple Praxis logo in the tips of all the skis. We had done custom base options in the past but over time we've found that the graphic bases just do not hold up and are not as fast as our black base material. The black UHMW material we have specifically made for us and its stronger and faster than the material we are able to print graphics to. So for now we've decided to eliminate the base options and just go with a simple die cut logo in the tip"
    I've always ordered non-die cut black, because it never made sense to me to cut a base into pieces, no matter how precise the process, and black because it's a lot easier to see where you need to repair it.

    Who knew they were faster too?

    I'm in the minority in absolutely hating ON3P's bases for the latter reason - difficulty in eyeballing a repair.

    ... Thom
    Galibier Design
    crafting technology in service of music

  17. #2242
    Join Date
    Mar 2020
    Posts
    150
    Ahhh but the ON3P bases allow you to pull a Sgt Schultz "I see nothing!"

  18. #2243
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    CO
    Posts
    2,216
    Quote Originally Posted by galibier_numero_un View Post
    I've always ordered non-die cut black, because it never made sense to me to cut a base into pieces, no matter how precise the process, and black because it's a lot easier to see where you need to repair it.

    Who knew they were faster too?

    I'm in the minority in absolutely hating ON3P's bases for the latter reason - difficulty in eyeballing a repair.

    ... Thom
    I love super loud bright base graphics but there's no question plain black is by far the easiest and prettiest to work with. Though being in CO I usually seem to get core shots that are so egregious it's pretty easy to spot on any color of base
    Quote Originally Posted by other grskier View Post
    well, in the three years i've been skiing i bet i can ski most anything those 'pro's' i listed can, probably

  19. #2244
    Join Date
    Mar 2020
    Posts
    150
    Today is the last day to get your orders in for this years summer build sale. If you've been on the fence today is the day.

  20. #2245
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Posts
    86
    Quote Originally Posted by brundo View Post
    How are you expecting the forward mounted Q to be different from the big WC? Better in chop because of the HH core but otherwise ?
    Hey, sorry for the delayed response. To echo what sruffian said, I also find the Q to be a bit looser / slarvey vs the WC. I've also had 5-6x the number of days on the Q and have the de-tune absolutely dialed on that ski so it breaks free essentially telepathically.

    Just looking to amplify that feeling with the +2. My 182 GPO is also a +2 mount (but that was a happy accident) and it's just a zipper ski now, but does ski pretty short hence the bump to 188 on the new Q.

    Despite the more progressive mount, the WC still feels like a directional ski to me in a lot of conditions. This isn't a bad thing as I used it as a DD and will most likely add a WC 101 as a DD next season. I'm looking at the Q as a true playful pow, drops, side hit, and soft groomer ski = less charger, more fun

    If the Q crushes it like I think it will then the WC116 might go up for sale to fund the WC 101.

  21. #2246
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Posts
    86
    Quote Originally Posted by HAB View Post
    Thanks! Order is in, with one of the non-standard veneers he has in right now. Very very excited.

    187 UL Protests
    Flex 3, -1 width
    Freak maple burl veneer, Powdah Snek White graphic
    Sweet build and glad you were able to snag one of those veneers. They looked sooooo good in person

  22. #2247
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Vinyl Valley
    Posts
    1,452
    Quote Originally Posted by Wes Mantooth View Post
    I just pulled the trigger on my first pair of Praxis - super pumped it's been a long time coming for me. Got the MVP 108 since based on my quiver and where I live it's the shape that will get the most use. Flex 4, Enduro, black snek topsheets. Will probably get some Protests in the future but I've been saying that for 10 years
    Right on! Hope you like them

  23. #2248
    Join Date
    Jun 2018
    Location
    Portland, OR
    Posts
    945
    Quote Originally Posted by galibier_numero_un View Post
    @ISBD's 2014 BGs (the last year of the 186 length) are a softer ski than the next gen. (184) which I also owned. How much of this has to do with use (I bought 'em from @lucknau and passed them along to @ISBD), I can't say. @lucknau is a pretty big boy so he might have punished them ;-)

    ... Thom
    Worry not about that. I never skied on them.

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