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  1. #151
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Central OR
    Posts
    4,508
    I had forgotten about this gem until now, so thanks for that...

    Name:  IMG_9918.JPG
Views: 875
Size:  35.9 KB

    [/DRIFT]

  2. #152
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Spudlandia
    Posts
    5,097
    Quote Originally Posted by waxman View Post
    JLev, here's a question re: not being profitable with Line, 4frnt and/or Armada (not you but I'd guess you'd know).
    3 basically "athlete driven companies" that couldn't make money and all sold to or pawned off on other entitities, is the "athlete driven" model flawed? As you know from even this forum and/or newschoolers everyone think they're pro so they should get a deal. Doesn't selling skis for what they're actually worth and not offering "deals" make more sense?
    The average skier skis something like 7-10 days a year with mean probably falling to like 5 days a year.

    People who ski freeride, park or powder skis are like ~2% of all skiers. Thatís the market ALL of the athlete driven companies are competing in. Think how many brands out there are competing for like 50k customers worldwide. Also this group is the most likely group to have pro-deals, industry friends, etc and you can see how these companies are struggling to make a profit.

    They are also either constrained on the production side by financing their own construction (ON3P model) or paying a factory like Elan or Atomic to make them for you (4FRNT and Armada). Both have distinct disadvantages when you try to scale or make product changes.

    Add in staff, R&D fees, sponsorship costs, etc. not a lot of meat left on the bone.

    Big brands can break even or even take small losses on their flagship skis and then sell 50k entry level skis at Dicks Sporting Goods.

  3. #153
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    North,NorthEast
    Posts
    1,954
    Quote Originally Posted by meter-man View Post
    Challenge Q: How can you be so skinny and live so fat?

    Super Challenge Q: As CEO of both J and 4FRNT, are you the Maestro?


    PM me for details.
    These are some seriously intriguing questions. Thanks JLev for taking time out of your day to answer such hard hitting inquiries

  4. #154
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Park City
    Posts
    2,467

    Sterbenz gone from 4frnt, end of an era

    I rip the groomed on tele gear

  5. #155
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    CA
    Posts
    1,476
    Quote Originally Posted by t-the-east View Post
    These are some seriously intriguing questions. Thanks JLev for taking time out of your day to answer such hard hitting inquiries
    Hahaha. I didn't want him to get skerd and run away!
    sproing!

  6. #156
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    There's no 666 in Outer Space
    Posts
    666
    Hey J - now that 4FRNT are being made in Canada, you totally have to bring back the Pil graphic...

    Name:  image.jpg
Views: 733
Size:  45.6 KB

    Consider this the first preorder.

  7. #157
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    northern BC
    Posts
    16,111
    Quote Originally Posted by Supermoon View Post
    The average skier skis something like 7-10 days a year with mean probably falling to like 5 days a year.

    People who ski freeride, park or powder skis are like ~2% of all skiers. Thatís the market ALL of the athlete driven companies are competing in. Think how many brands out there are competing for like 50k customers worldwide. Also this group is the most likely group to have pro-deals, industry friends, etc and you can see how these companies are struggling to make a profit.

    They are also either constrained on the production side by financing their own construction (ON3P model) or paying a factory like Elan or Atomic to make them for you (4FRNT and Armada). Both have distinct disadvantages when you try to scale or make product changes.

    Add in staff, R&D fees, sponsorship costs, etc. not a lot of meat left on the bone.

    Big brands can break even or even take small losses on their flagship skis and then sell 50k entry level skis at Dicks Sporting Goods.
    Off season price on 4FRNT skis is 600$ which doesn't seem like a lot of money

    maybe they need to charge mo money ?
    Lee Lau - xxx-er is the laziest Asian canuck I know

  8. #158
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Posts
    8,071
    Nice. I can finance the stickers.
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Capture.GIF 
Views:	157 
Size:	76.4 KB 
ID:	243944
    "timberridge is terminally vapid" -- a fortune cookie in Yueyang

  9. #159
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Sonoma & Truckee
    Posts
    9,691
    Quote Originally Posted by Supermoon View Post
    People who ski freeride, park or powder skis are like ~2% of all skiers.
    Uhhhhhhh.... not sure where you got that info, but no.

  10. #160
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Spudlandia
    Posts
    5,097
    Quote Originally Posted by TahoeJ View Post
    Uhhhhhhh.... not sure where you got that info, but no.
    I just made it up, but from what I see itís close. I would love to see real numbers if they exist

  11. #161
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Banff
    Posts
    19,565
    Quote Originally Posted by detrusor View Post
    Thanks, I was looking in 4frnt site


  12. #162
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    North,NorthEast
    Posts
    1,954
    Quote Originally Posted by Timberridge View Post
    Nice. I can finance the stickers.
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Capture.GIF 
Views:	157 
Size:	76.4 KB 
ID:	243944
    J really has thought of everything! With finance charges, that sticker should be paid off In just over a year!!

  13. #163
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Location
    Boston
    Posts
    1,872
    anyone interested in a 193 EHP set Iím gonna unload? love the ski but itís got limited use where I live and is hard to justify as a travel ski in my existing quiver.

    Chinese water color Currently mounted -8 (the line) with Tyrolia Attack 16 for 295. One previous mount was incorrectly mounted like -14CM . I donít think there are other mounts but Iím not 100% sure and Iím hesitant to take the binders off. Repaired tail edge compression which was common until they put plastic back there.

    Would let them go cheap

  14. #164
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Location
    Burlington, VT
    Posts
    106
    Quote Originally Posted by t-the-east View Post
    J really has thought of everything! With finance charges, that sticker should be paid off In just over a year!!
    hilarious! actually all financing including on all our skis, bindings... yes even stickers is actually 0% (INTEREST FREE) for 6 months on all products, you can afford $0.16 mth

  15. #165
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Location
    Burlington, VT
    Posts
    106
    thanks, will share w Hoji

  16. #166
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Location
    Burlington, VT
    Posts
    106
    Quote Originally Posted by waxman View Post
    JLev, here's a question re: not being profitable with Line, 4frnt and/or Armada (not you but I'd guess you'd know).
    3 basically "athlete driven companies" that couldn't make money and all sold to or pawned off on other entitities, is the "athlete driven" model flawed? As you know from even this forum and/or newschoolers everyone think they're pro so they should get a deal. Doesn't selling skis for what they're actually worth and not offering "deals" make more sense?
    Yes selling skis for what they're worth is optimal but the value of a product like you know is based on supply and demand. The REAL PROBLEM in the ski industry is large brands over produce simply to maintain factory minimums required to deal with unions and hit undreasonably large budget goals by public companies. This puts too much product in the market, leading to over supply and under demand = everyone has to sell for less than the product is worth. In the end small brands don't have a chance in hell of beating the big companies low prices to dealers and end up simply not getting their product into shops or doing so by selling too cheap and loosing money. Only solution, sell direct so you can sell less qty, at higher margin and pay your bills... no longer being part of the low price race to the bottom retail store game the big guys can all afford to play.

    Prodeal discounts and some flowed free product to influencers is part of normal marketing and is not what is making small brands loose money as long as they keep to a reasonable % of total sales.

  17. #167
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Location
    Burlington, VT
    Posts
    106
    Quote Originally Posted by XavierD View Post
    You donít get an account discount? Weird, you must be the only retailer paying consumer costs for international (or domestic) shipping. Maybe give your shipping agent and customs broker a call to get a decent account discount and known and consistent import duty costs. You know, like every other buesiness does...
    Thanks for the push. My warehouse passes on to me a 20% discount which at end of day still puts it over $200. Shipping a few thousand boxes a year in the real world unfortunately does not impress Fedex or UPS. I have since lowered the shipping to $200 for international orders but keeped FREE shipping to US and Canada for J and 4FRNT.

  18. #168
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    north aspect
    Posts
    39,196
    Quote Originally Posted by JLev View Post
    Prodeal discounts and some flowed free product to influencers is part of normal marketing and is not what is making small brands loose money as long as they keep to a reasonable % of total sales.
    i’ve done some influencing
    bF
    Alpental Indigenous

  19. #169
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Posts
    19
    Thanks JLev - for being on here, saving 4frnt, being an innovator, continuing to disrupt. A few things...
    - Love the Hoji Q&A last night! Can't wait for his movie to come thru town
    - Another big vote for the EHP limited release (w/ pils graphics!) - while the Ren is more refined, the EHP is still different enough @ 40M
    - Just picked up some Ravens a month ago and debating in my head adding the new lighter Ren to the quiver... it's just skiing, and money

  20. #170
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Cowtown
    Posts
    298
    Quote Originally Posted by m104da View Post
    - Another big vote for the EHP limited release (w/ pils graphics!) - while the Ren is more refined, the EHP is still different enough @ 40M
    Count me in. Iím still regularly skiing mine.

  21. #171
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Location
    Boston
    Posts
    1,872
    Buy my 193 EHPs before they hit GS! Chinese water color graphic too

  22. #172
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    champlain valley
    Posts
    4,404
    ^they are a good deal

  23. #173
    Join Date
    Oct 2018
    Posts
    6
    Grew up skiing in the SW, transitioned to snowboarding (who doesn't like powder on a board?), use to be able to ski / ride anything I wanted hard, then all of the sudden... (college + work + lived in all the wrong places = 15 year absence from heavy duty snow life). Decided to change that, back out west, been a long road (~3 years) getting back to form + getting f'n geared up proper (tough, but on the path to righteousness finally, thx 4frnt, screw rosignol souless 7 and the BB old guy salesman who does not know any better).

    I run the 4frn rens, ravens, and devs. Looking to add last year hoji on a lightweight tour binding (if I can find a boot that I like).

    Thanks for adding the ski specs to the 4frnt website for ease of access and transparency. Can you add the ski edge angles?

    Suggestion: Make 4frnt website a one stop shop for all base supplies specific to skis, i.e. sell all the stuff for people to 'mount their own f'n bindings' and tune. Sell demo bindings. I had heck trying to find a shop to mount tyrolia adrenalines on some 4frnt skis. I ended up mounting my own f'n bindings.

    The shop I consulted who had a tyrolia adrenaline jig talked down 4frnt after 4frnt started to sell direct. My response, well there are plenty of dentists and rosignol souless 7s...

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