2018 Wildfire Season

**Flyoverland Captive** · 11-12-2018, 02:56 PM

Holy shit that is terrifying.

Originally Posted by KQ

Posted by a local here in W2 (FB page My Town Walla Walla Washington):

I am thankful tonight that my brother & sister-in-law who lost their home & property made it safely out of Paradise. This is his toasted vehicle that he drove through the tunnel of fire with. When I mentioned the tunnel this is what he responded with:

That is what I drove thru. . Fire on both sides with burning cars, exploding propane tanks and trees bursting into flames, my windows were very hot to touch, bull dozer pushing off cars that were on fire off the side of the road. I thank God for my safety . Looking back I'm amazed I survived except by the GRACE of GOD.

**Kevo** · 11-12-2018, 02:57 PM

Originally Posted by char_

Suicide - yes, an issue. Would need to see a study that controls for influx of Afghan and Iraq vets into firecrew ranks.

I thought the Feds in USFS region 5 coverted a big number of PSE GS5/6/7 into permanent full-times to combat this year round fire issue and other agencies hiring away trained seasonal staff.

I don't know how people could run 12 month a year on an IHC without serious problems (physical, safety, work/life). There have been some recent studies showing the physical declined smoke jumpers undergo over a season. I have to think that is worse on an IHC. They would have to completely rethink work to rest ratios.

Good points all around.

**AdironRider** · 11-12-2018, 03:05 PM

Originally Posted by Meadow Skipper

You would be wrong about hiring. The pay isn’t great compared to the hours, rigorous work, danger, travel, and separation from friends and family. It’s not for everyone by any stretch - and season after season takes its toll physically. And by far the majority of the federal crews are ‘temporary/seasonals’ that don’t get any benefits. And unless I’m sadly mistaken, McDonald’s pays more per hour, and you get to go home at night and you don’t have to sleep on the ground. Most people can’t handle the hard work and long hours and being gone for weeks.

Edit: + 1^n to what char_ said above.

No doubt, I'm not short changing the job in the least, I couldn't hack it. I'm trying to think why the suicide rate is going up which was the original comment. Here in Jackson kids hear about this job and think, hey what a great ski bum gig with killer OT (which is the draw right, lots of OT pay) without really thinking about what a mind fuck that shit can be on top of the physical thing. I know of more than a few washouts also because of this.

**char_** · 11-12-2018, 03:15 PM

Huge difference between working for Calfire, UsFS region 5 and working on a shot crew based anywhere outside California.

I mean, a USFS fire crew based in Idaho is highly unlikely to be in Paradise type situation.

**AdironRider** · 11-12-2018, 03:57 PM

OK, I don't think anyone is arguing that people have it easier or harder than anyone else when it comes to fighting fire. I respect all of you guys and what you do and hate to see anyone driven to suicide. Are you saying its unique to cali and a result of their pay level?

**neufox47** · 11-12-2018, 04:09 PM

Originally Posted by Meadow Skipper

You would be wrong about hiring. The pay isn’t great compared to the hours, rigorous work, danger, travel, and separation from friends and family. It’s not for everyone by any stretch - and season after season takes its toll physically. And by far the majority of the federal crews are ‘temporary/seasonals’ that don’t get any benefits. And unless I’m sadly mistaken, McDonald’s pays more per hour, and you get to go home at night and you don’t have to sleep on the ground. Most people can’t handle the hard work and long hours and being gone for weeks.

Edit: + 1^n to what char_ said above.

That article said $3200 a month for pay as the high end, in which case I think why don’t we have more firefighters? If one guy saves one house he paid his salary for years. Tax the insurance companies or something.

**hutash** · 11-12-2018, 04:16 PM

Originally Posted by Meadow Skipper

You would be wrong about hiring. The pay isn’t great compared to the hours, rigorous work, danger, travel, and separation from friends and family. It’s not for everyone by any stretch - and season after season takes its toll physically. And by far the majority of the federal crews are ‘temporary/seasonals’ that don’t get any benefits. And unless I’m sadly mistaken, McDonald’s pays more per hour, and you get to go home at night and you don’t have to sleep on the ground. Most people can’t handle the hard work and long hours and being gone for weeks.

Edit: + 1^n to what char_ said above.

I don't know about now, but in the past the pay was quite good, as were many of the perks associated with being on the fire line. I was on a crew 30 years ago, so things have likely changes, but we got paid very well, fed extremely well, and will spending a night in the burn sucks, we got extra pay for it. As a California based FS crew we got sent out of state all the time, so an Idaho based crew could easily end up in a place like Paradise (if it involved Federal land.) We spent a lot of time in BLM land and such, so it does take much to qualify for mutual aid.

It was a fun summer college job, and I can see it as a full time job. Not as a front line grunt after a few years, but as supervisor or higher up in the department. It is fucking hard work. I was just chatting with a Cal Fire regional supervisor. Seems like he hard a pretty good job. He wants pulling hose, but was coordinating logistics and monitoring the over all fire response. 30 year career veteran, sure he spent nights away from home, most mostly just during the "normally" few fire months each year, and was 9-5 most of the time.

**hutash** · 11-12-2018, 04:29 PM

Originally Posted by KQ

Posted by a local here in W2 (FB page My Town Walla Walla Washington):

I am thankful tonight that my brother & sister-in-law who lost their home & property made it safely out of Paradise. This is his toasted vehicle that he drove through the tunnel of fire with. When I mentioned the tunnel this is what he responded with:

That is what I drove thru. . Fire on both sides with burning cars, exploding propane tanks and trees bursting into flames, my windows were very hot to touch, bull dozer pushing off cars that were on fire off the side of the road. I thank God for my safety . Looking back I'm amazed I survived except by the GRACE of GOD.

Vibes KQ, to you and more so to your brother and S in L. It sucks, but having supportive people around you, both physically and emotionally really helps. My out of state relatives reached out after the fire, and again after this recent threat to make sure we were all right. It really helps. Send them a box of chocolate or other small, seemingly insignificant little something with a note of sympathy and support. I guarantee you will make their day.

I semi-jokingly tell people "When you watch the news and you see those idiots driving out through the flames, and you think to yourself why are those idiots still there? Well, you now know one of those idiots. I drove out though the flames, and sometimes it just happens." Sometimes they really are idiots that won't leave because they have to finish their make up, but most are just caught in a bad situation that is getting rapidly worse a lot faster then most people can ever imagine. Some of us slept through the whole evacuation

Once again, I want the thank all the mangs who reached out and supported us after our event, and many who did recently as well. It really, really matters.

**char_** · 11-12-2018, 04:30 PM

Originally Posted by AdironRider

OK, I don't think anyone is arguing that people have it easier or harder than anyone else when it comes to fighting fire. I respect all of you guys and what you do and hate to see anyone driven to suicide. Are you saying its unique to cali and a result of their pay level?

I have no idea what the cause might be.

Nonfulltime firefighter retention for the USFS has been notoriously difficult over the last 10 years in California because you can't pay your bills in Cali working 6-9 months a year and save for a house, have a family, etc in many places. So they jump ship to Calfire or leave the region.

Hutash- My experience was that Region 5 rarely imported resources unless SHTF. But they seemed to be pretty strategic about sending out of state resources to assignments they were familiar with when they did, not putting them in the middle of an urban interface monster. California has a lot of well trained and equiped resources.

Not saying out of state resources don't have the experience, but the California urban interface is just different, IMO. Just about everyone has an Alaska or California assignment story once you have been around awhile. I've been out of it awhile, so maybe it has changed.

**SumJongGuy** · 11-12-2018, 04:51 PM

Originally Posted by hutash

The system is actually pretty bad. In the Thomas fire, I never got an alert, but my wife who was out of town did. She called to ask me about it, which woke me up to the fact there was a fire near by. Less then an hour later the backyard was on fire, and I decided it was time to leave. For the Hill/Woolsey fires, I got an emergency alert on my phone with instructions to contact local authorizes for instructions. No reference or link to who the actual authorizes were. I searched all the local county websites for updates, but info limited, and pretty useless over all. Fortunately my immediate area was not affected, so there really was no reason for the alert.

At best, the alert system is a work in progress. So far, I have little faith in it.

I was commenting on the post about a Duluth wild fire taking 1,000 lives being the "worst" fire ever. Think of how many lives we would have lost in this fire with only 1918 technology?? No cell phones, only a few landlines that probably went down immediately, really sketchy radios most people didn't have in their homes. By that tech standard these fires would have killed tens and tens of thousands. Heck, the cell phone alerts aren't perfect.. Imagine a world with ZERO cell phones and the poles for land lines gone.. and how many people would have been burned alive in their homes before they knew it was coming? Take tech back 30 years and I guarantee these would have killed way more than that 1918 Duluth fire did..

Originally Posted by neufox47

That article said $3200 a month for pay as the high end, in which case I think why don’t we have more firefighters? If one guy saves one house he paid his salary for years. Tax the insurance companies or something.

A lot of people are paying $3k for just their mortgage on a 3 bedroom basic family home in Northern California. Also, considering fire fighters have to be available pretty much 24/7 like MS said, that's not even min wage when factored out over the time you have to be ready and available..

**Dantheman** · 11-12-2018, 05:17 PM

Originally Posted by SumJongGuy

A lot of people are paying $3k for just their mortgage on a 3 bedroom basic family home in Northern California. Also, considering fire fighters have to be available pretty much 24/7 like MS said, that's not even min wage when factored out over the time you have to be ready and available..

I think he meant that with pay that low we should hire twice as many FFs.

Those pics from KQ, holy fucking shit!

**Bunion 2020** · 11-12-2018, 05:33 PM

I was on a job site today and caught up with one of the Excavator Operators. John is about my age (60s) and last week he told me he and the family were flying to Sacramento and heading up north for his wife's fathers funeral.

When I heard about the Paradise fire I was pretty sure it was in that neck of the woods.

Saw him today. His wife's mom lost everything. 200 acre ranch burnt to a cinder in 15 minutes.

He said it was like a scene from Mad Max, people in full terror mode, running stop lights/signs etc.

Also said that there were a lot of people who didn't make it out and that the 250+ missing people sounded low to him.

Vibes to all of you dealing with this.

**Meadow Skipper** · 11-12-2018, 06:25 PM

Fed pay rates: most crewmembers are GS 3, 4, or 5. In 2018 GS 3 pay rate was $11.04/hr, GS 4 was $12.40/hr, GS 5 was $13.87/hr. Seasonal crewmembers work 6 months a year at the most, no benefits. Typically it’s kind of a good job for a year someone in great shape that has other things going on like school or ski bumming, but in the fire world experience is pretty important to keep from getting fucked up as well as to move up, and trying to keep people in the game (without getting injured) long enough to gain experience at that pay rate and when they’re getting getting furloughed for most of the year is problematic. And as char_ mentioned burnout and injuries are a real problem. Having a home and family is really a struggle when you’re likely to be gone for two weeks at a time often during the fire season. I went through two different marriages during my years on the line. But then I did it for 32 years, the last 14 in program management, so it works for some people. ill-advised strategy wasn’t so lucky as I was.

So add the exhausting nature of the work, and it’s hard to hire good people.

**bodywhomper** · 11-12-2018, 08:38 PM

Regarding getting notification of evacuation and reverse 911, the systems are not that great yet. But imo, it’s important to have a hardline land line. I think this is now more important since the power utilities are cutting power during some red flag warnings.

**4matic** · 11-12-2018, 08:50 PM

A fleet of cell enabled drones with sirens could cover a wide swath.

**Meadow Skipper** · 11-12-2018, 09:20 PM

Originally Posted by 4matic

A fleet of cell enabled drones with sirens could cover a wide swath.

...until they interfered with the helicopters, air tankers, and recon aircraft responding to the fire.

**4matic** · 11-12-2018, 09:38 PM

Originally Posted by Meadow Skipper

...until they interfered with the helicopters, air tankers, and recon aircraft responding to the fire.

That's pretty easy to control with elevation restrictions

**bodywhomper** · 11-12-2018, 09:38 PM

And you need power to charge your cell phones, network extenders, and or computers. Pg&e’s current protocol is to inspect distribution and transmission lines that were deenergized before re-energizing the circuits.

**Meadow Skipper** · 11-12-2018, 10:52 PM

Originally Posted by 4matic

That's pretty easy to control with elevation restrictions

Because fire helicopters and air tankers maintain consistent elevations?

Have much experience with air traffic over wildfires?

**hutash** · 11-12-2018, 11:18 PM

Originally Posted by bodywhomper

Regarding getting notification of evacuation and reverse 911, the systems are not that great yet. But imo, it’s important to have a hardline land line. I think this is now more important since the power utilities are cutting power during some red flag warnings.

I had a hard land line...nothing.

Of course I have to entertain the real possibility that they didn't want me to wake up and that everyone quietly evacuated so as not to let me know. Roll you car down hill a couple blocks before starting the engine, we dont want to wake up that asshole.

**neufox47** · 11-12-2018, 11:22 PM

Originally Posted by Dantheman

I think he meant that with pay that low we should hire twice as many FFs.

This. And pay those people more, those wages, yech. It would be a drop in the bucket compared to the monetary damage done. Not saying all or most can be avoided, but some could.

**4matic** · 11-12-2018, 11:31 PM

Originally Posted by Meadow Skipper

Because fire helicopters and air tankers maintain consistent elevations?

Have much experience with air traffic over wildfires?

OK, you're the expert.. Those wouldn't be private drones.

Drones are used by fire and other responders now so why isn't controlled use of new technology an option?

**~mikey b** · 11-12-2018, 11:38 PM

It is but it’s new enough that it isn’t in use yet

**4matic** · 11-12-2018, 11:40 PM

Drones are fighting wildfires in some very surprising ways

aerial drones may help save the day. In fact, the Los Angeles Fire Department today said it would use firefighting drones for the first time in its history to coordinate the effort to help extinguish a pair of fires threatening homes in the city.

From tiny quadcopters to big fixed-wing aircraft, drones are showing that they can detect, contain and even extinguish fires faster and with greater safety. They give firefighters a bird’s-eye view of the terrain and help them determine where a fire will spread — so they can make swift decisions about where fire crews should go and which residents need to be evacuated.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nbc...amp/ncna820966

**bodywhomper** · 11-12-2018, 11:40 PM

Yesterday there were 3 fires in western nevada county from people lighting their burn piles which quickly got out of hand. This is under a no burn order in the area and a red flag warning. Tonight, a quarter mile from my house, somebody dumped their wood stove ash behind their house and started a small fire. All fires were quickly put out, but holy fucking shit!!! People are going about doing their mid-november behaviors as if we'd already received several inches of rain and are well into the wet season .

Originally Posted by hutash

I had a hard land line...nothing.

Of course I have to entertain the real possibility that they didn't want me to wake up and that everyone quietly evacuated so as not to let me know. Roll you car down hill a couple blocks before starting the engine, we dont want to wake up that asshole.

Understood. Hopefully, the systems will improve.

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