Lubing the clutch in a rear derailleur?

[sethschmautz]

I have been noticing that my shifting is getting worse going both directions. I replaced cables over the winter and recently readjusted everything to try to make things work a little better.

Yesterday I turned off the clutch and the shifting improved quite a bit.

I think you can lube these, but is it worth the hassle? Anybody had good success doing this or should I just replace it?

Seth

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[mtngirl79]

My bike was doing that Saturday and the bike shop fixed it in about 5 minutes but I'm not sure what he did besides lube my chain and adjust the shifting a bit.

The mechanic I was riding with said the clutch might need "serviced" when he turned it off so I could shift to climb up but he's not the one that fixed it...

[radam]

As long as you've got the correct grease (same as the Shimano Nexus hub grease), it takes about one minute and definitely helps improve shifting smoothness. If you don't want to wait to order the grease, you can probably go down to you shop with a little bag or cup and ask for a dime-sized dollop. You basically use the amount that sticks to a toothpick tip to lube the clutch, so even a small amount is a near lifetime supply.

[Dee Hubbs]

Shimano = yes
EDIT, just reread that you "turned it off" meaning you have a Shimano. No need for SRAM info below.
SRAM Type 2 = yes
SRAM Type 2.1 = no
SRAM Type 3 = no

[sethschmautz]

Just watching a video on YouTube illustrating my exact issue where the cage is really tough to pull forward. I'll try to grease it later today.

I don't have the Nexus grease, but the video suggests that Dumonde Pro-X freehub grease works also, which I DO have.

Seth

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[sethschmautz]

The regrease is really easy. I also lightened up the clutch tension a little bit and I have a little better shifting. The Dumonde grease seems to be REALLY light weight - most of it seemed to wipe away really easily. I'll ride in the next few days and report back.

Seth

[sethschmautz]

Meh. Shifting was marginally better. Switched the clutch off and the shifting worked great (also the chain slap). I might try some more adjustment, but after that I think I'll rotate in a non-clutch derailleur while I pull this one apart and try to clean and lube everything. Maybe I just have friction in a bunch of other places and the composite is affecting shifting as a whole...

... I'm open to other ideas also if there are any out there.

Seth

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[Jonny Snow]

I don't even use the clutch. Only really needed if you're slamming through rock gardens at high speed or doing lots of drops to flat.

[sethschmautz]

I don't even use the clutch. Only really needed if you're slamming through rock gardens at high speed or doing lots of drops to flat.

My riding is a mix and I definitely noticed the chain on the descents after I turned it off. It was fine on the flats, though.

Jonny, weren't you posting a while back about using an 11-speed RD with 10-speed shifters on extended cassettes to do away with the goat link and longer B screw? Did you have to modify in some way? I've run across one example of somebody using an M8000 with 10-speed, but haven't really looked into the pros/cons. I'd be interested in hearing your take.

Seth

[rideit]

I know you said you replaced cables over the winter, but I would start with new cables AND housing, and go from there.

[sethschmautz]

I know you said you replaced cables over the winter, but I would start with new cables AND housing, and go from there.

Thanks. I've been considering this also. I did replace both with some Jagwire cables that mtnlion traded me. I bought the bike in Canada, so it probably needs Canadian shift cable, eh? :-)

Might benefit from a full clean/lube of the shifter, RD, and new cables.

Seth

[Schemeboat]

I bought the bike in Canada, so it probably needs Canadian shift cable, eh? :-)

Oh, well there's your problem.

I've had this happen to me, here in Canada, and here is what my metric findings came up with (please excuse anything rudimentary, je suis le slow):
- The clutch is a very simple mechanism, and usually has a little dust cap on it that allows you to access the clutch tension with a small tool.
- I have lubed it trailside with triflow.
- Over this past winter I didn't ride at all due to injury, so my bikes sat around for months... which lead to surprises never previously encountered.
- When you remove the cage you can access that spring which gets mad rusty and full of debris. To get the cage off you will be pulling the clutch cover off, so you'll get a good idea of how much work the clutch is doing and you can adjust accordingly.
- The cage spring can be cleaned and that was noticeable in the shifting.
- There is also a small rubber washer between the clutch cover and the body of the dr. Make sure that is in ok shape, it should be.
- Make sure the clutch tension is neither way too tight or too loose.

...I don't know that any of this will help. sometimes I just turn it off and forget about it.

[jamal]

How new is your chain?

I put sram gx 1x11 on my mtb last spring, and noticed some degraded shifting quailty by the fall. Chain was just worn and it's back to like new again with a fresh one. Had around 1000mi on the shimano hg-601, replaced it with a kmc x11sl because I found the gold ones on amazon for like $35.

[XXX-er]

I dealt with many thousands of spring clutches in typewriters & printers, even indoors you always get the red rust

just clean surfaces & lube with light grease, if you can't get them apart flush with grease

[sethschmautz]

How new is your chain?

New (along with the cassette) on 5/21/18.

[radam]

Considering the shifting is fine when the clutch is off, I say try it again with the Shimano grease. Or buy a new clutch unit for $12.

To your question about 10-speed shifters with 11-sped mechs.. I ran that setup very briefly. I didn't find the shift quality to be any better/worse than 10-speed with a Goat Link, but the clutch on the 11-speed Shimano mechs is a little bit smoother. I vaguely remember dialing in the cable tension adjustment to be ever so slightly more finicky. Fresh cable and housing would definitely beneficial there. So you could certainly go that route if yo wanted. But even then 11-speed clutch needs a periodic re-grease for maximum smoothness, so I think your best bet is to start with the grease.

[FlimFlamvanHam]

of somebody using an M8000 with 10-speed, but haven't really looked into the pros/cons. I'd be interested in hearing your take.

Seth

i run an M8000 rear d with XT 10 speed trigger and a sunrace 11-42 10 speed cassette. Works perfectly. I was an early adopter of single ring/wide range and have used all the bojangled stuff that came out: the extender cog on the 11-36 10 speed cassette; then the Rad cage on and XT 10 speed rear D.

The M8000 or M7000 rear d's work so much better due to the positioning of the upper jockey wheel: meaning ample clearance of the large cog (even with B screw at nothing near any extreme in or out) and excellent chain wrap and shifting in the small cogs (that part was always most compromised with the bojangled set ups).

[Jonny Snow]

My riding is a mix and I definitely noticed the chain on the descents after I turned it off. It was fine on the flats, though.

Jonny, weren't you posting a while back about using an 11-speed RD with 10-speed shifters on extended cassettes to do away with the goat link and longer B screw? Did you have to modify in some way? I've run across one example of somebody using an M8000 with 10-speed, but haven't really looked into the pros/cons. I'd be interested in hearing your take.

Seth

Pretty much all wide range 11-spd RD's will work well with the new crop of wide range 10-spd cassettes, obviously with a 10 shifter.

You can also put a M8000 cage on a 10-speed Shimano clutch derailleur to increase it's large cog capability. Works good.

[sethschmautz]

i run an M8000 rear d with XT 10 speed trigger and a sunrace 11-42 10 speed cassette. Works perfectly. I was an early adopter of single ring/wide range and have used all the bojangled stuff that came out: the extender cog on the 11-36 10 speed cassette; then the Rad cage on and XT 10 speed rear D.

The M8000 or M7000 rear d's work so much better due to the positioning of the upper jockey wheel: meaning ample clearance of the large cog (even with B screw at nothing near any extreme in or out) and excellent chain wrap and shifting in the small cogs (that part was always most compromised with the bojangled set ups).

Are you running a goat link, by any chance? I ordered an M8000 RD that should arrive tonight. Currently I have a goat link on my 10s RD with my sunrace 11-46 cassette, but can't find definitively whether I need to run it with the M8000 or not. As you can but a Shimano 11-46 XT cassette it would seem to suggest that I'd be okay without it. Any real world experience either way?

Seth

[joetron]

You should not need a goat link for the 8000 rd with 11-46 cassette


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[Jonny Snow]

Are you running a goat link, by any chance? I ordered an M8000 RD that should arrive tonight. Currently I have a goat link on my 10s RD with my sunrace 11-46 cassette, but can't find definitively whether I need to run it with the M8000 or not. As you can but a Shimano 11-46 XT cassette it would seem to suggest that I'd be okay without it. Any real world experience either way?

Seth

You should not need the goat link, but if you feel like trying it, it will likely improve chain wrap and reduce chain/cassette wear.

[sethschmautz]

Thanks guys. I have the original GL, not the GL11. I'm not positive about the differences, other than they were designed for different derailleurs. That said, the forum postings I did find from Marc Lindarets suggested that it would be a benefit even if not as much of a benefit as the GL11.

I'll probably try it without, first. If it shifts well I'll use the GL and a 11-42 cassette on a different bike...

Seth

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[sethschmautz]

I got the M8000 a few days ago and finally got a ride in today. I am amazed at how much the shifting improved. Especially shifting into larger cogs I was having to apply a lot of pressure. That's all easy and smooth now. The RD seems to have been the culprit.

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[LC]

What are you guys lubing exactly in Shimano clutch mechs? Seth do you have a link to the video you mentioned?

My Saint cage was getting really tough to move forward by hand, almost like the clutch tension was set way higher than it used to be. Shifting wasn't too good and there was a bit of creaking while grinding up climbs in a high gear with the clutch on (but no creaking when I tested with it off). I loosened the clutch tension a little and shifting improved a bit (new cable probably helped the shifting more) but then chainslap increased a lot (yes, I am "slamming through rock gardens" on the regular ). The cage still required a lot of force for initial movement though - it's not notchy but the initial movement gives a bit of an audible snap/crack.

I ended up switching to my old/backup Zee mech which was is better condition and things improved but it would be good to get the Saint functioning better if it ever needs to go back on the bike.

[sethschmautz]

Here are a few that I watched to help with the process:

https://youtu.be/L5KWFhzIPoc

https://youtu.be/NSY4210ImvI

https://youtu.be/zGdkAE_y_aE

I took the derailleur apart, greased the main pivots pulled the clutch out and greased and adjusted the tension. The notchy feel got better but never went away completely.

As I mentioned above, the thing that was most interesting to me was how much easier shifting was with the new derailleur. The shifter was having to do far less work.

I did replace the cable also and one piece of housing, so I'm sure that helped also, but I don't believe it accounts for all of the difficulty in shifting.

Seth

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