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  1. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by ACH View Post
    Yeah... no.
    There are enough fucking cameras in the world, I mountain bike to get away from that shit.
    That's not a hypothetical enforcement strategy idea he's floating, it's what the local managers there are doing right now. His gripe is that so far they are going to these extreme measures to catch bikers poaching closed trails, while turning a blind eye to ebikers riding non-motorized trails.

    Quote Originally Posted by californiagrown View Post
    I would love to get in 5000' days on my bike without having to be in pro level shape and/or ride a XC whippet.
    Hah. Man, there are a lot of people around here wasting their "pro level" fitness working day jobs when they could be riding their bikes for a living, apparently.

    Quote Originally Posted by MultiVerse View Post
    ^^^ Yeah, Yeti's old stomping grounds in Ogden have a bunch of trails where anything goes. Bikes, motos, horses, scout troops. Some of the rides are burly and the scenery is as good as it gets. It all seems to work too but I wouldn't want things to be like that everywhere.
    It's not just Ogden divide. It works out pretty well for the most part in American Fork, Payson Canyon, and Diamond Fork just to name a few places that are within easy reach of Wasatch Front metro areas. Besides the noise, my main gripe is that the motos turn any steep-ish climb into a blown out rut 3 feet deep. If they were quiet and had mandatory traction control motos wouldn't really bother me at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by nest View Post
    Ebikes are a weird hill to plant your flag on when decrying elitism.
    Right? All the eMTBs that look worth riding cost $8k-10k. But, this is America where human-powered=elitist and motor-powered=of the people. A guy riding a $5k pedal bike is an elitist prick, but a guy driving a $20k RZR side-by-side that he towed behind his $60k diesel Superduty and $100k 5th wheel somehow isn't.

    Quote Originally Posted by GoldMember View Post
    What does strike me about this argument is that, even though e-bikes currently are limited in speed, they may not be in the future or if modified.
    Exactly. The line between an eMTB and an electric dirtbike is only going to get blurrier and blurrier, and Sierra Club environazis are going to use that as a bludgeon to close off access to everything but foot traffic (and horses, because they're somehow the only ones who get to use historical use as an argument to maintain access). USFS and BLM will take the path of least resistance every time, which will always be closures.

    Quote Originally Posted by californiagrown View Post
    I think it will take an industry wide push amongst manufacturers of Electric Mountain Bikes to not produce over powered bikes and make them hard to modify. that way, it will be much easier to tell the difference between a e-moto and a pedal-assist bike. there will always be the folks who break the rules, but the intent is to make them the negligible minority through the inconvenience and cost of modification.
    Good luck with that.

    Quote Originally Posted by 2FUNKY View Post
    Man this thread delivers. Well done pedal fags.
    You're welcome, motorcunt
    Last edited by Dantheman; 07-17-2018 at 11:20 AM.

  2. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by toast2266 View Post
    Definitely.

    By all means, I think there should be more moto legal trail, and thus more places where ebikes are allowed. And if the ebike crowd wants to go lobby land managers for access, that's awesome. But ebikers lumping themselves in with unpowered mountain bikes does a huge disservice to all of us and pisses me right off.
    People don't know how much effort went on in the past and goes in the present kissing Land Manager ass and stroking other user groups to get MTB access. And more often than not; even if they know they don't care.

    Even though Dan, you, Vern Felton (at PB) and myself and many others have pointed out that e-biking may endanger trail access it seems to get ignored. People will argue about it even though I (and others) point out that it's the land managers and other groups e-biking proponents have to convince. Posting on TGR forums or social media ain't gonna do much good.

  3. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dantheman View Post
    Hah. Man, there are a lot of people around here wasting their "pro level fitness" working day jobs when they could be riding their bikes for a living, apparently.
    Youre right, lots of folks have pro level fitness. That is why there are lots of folks in the expert/pro classes at local races all over and even more riders with that level of fitness but not that level of bike skills. Doesnt mean that a 5000'+ ride isnt a big ride, and not many folks have time to stay in the shape needed to do that, nor the time to actually do that big of a ride all the time. I would love to knock out that ride in a morning and not be wiped out the rest of the day.

  4. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dantheman View Post


    You're welcome, motorcunt
    Heh. Don’t own a moto anymore and couldn’t care less about e-bikes. I do ride some, just have to many other hobbies. The holier than thou from some in here is comical, not seeing that from you.

  5. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by californiagrown View Post
    Youre right, lots of folks have pro level fitness. That is why there are lots of folks in the expert/pro classes at local races all over and even more riders with that level of fitness but not that level of bike skills. Doesnt mean that a 5000'+ ride isnt a big ride, and not many folks have time to stay in the shape needed to do that, nor the time to actually do that big of a ride all the time. I would love to knock out that ride in a morning and not be wiped out the rest of the day.
    Maybe you could go for a drive instead.

    I'd like to go to the top of Mt Rainier. I'm not
    In good enough shape.

  6. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtngirl79 View Post
    Maybe you could go for a drive instead.

    I'd like to go to the top of Mt Rainier. I'm not
    In good enough shape.
    But yet you have no problem using a machine with space age technology which allows yourself explore mountains and areas you otherwise wouldn't be able to because you are not in good enough shape to cover the distance/elevation. Why are you in support of machines on what were previously hiker only trails, but not low powered e-bikes? Or do you just blindly agree with whatever rules you are told?

    Just because current rules exist, doesn't mean they shouldn't evolve with the times and with new technology. You can follow rules, while disagreeing with them.

  7. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by californiagrown View Post
    But yet you have no problem using a machine with space age technology which allows yourself explore mountains and areas you otherwise wouldn't be able to because you are not in good enough shape to cover the distance/elevation. Why are you in support of machines on what were previously hiker only trails, but not low powered e-bikes? Or do you just blindly agree with whatever rules you are told?

    Just because current rules exist, doesn't mean they shouldn't evolve with the times and with new technology. You can follow rules, while disagreeing with them.
    Well said. This is what I also find laughable since not long ago, all hiking trails were off limits to pedal bikes. Now pretty much all forest service trails allow pedal bikes which is in conflict with much slower hikers, yet they both get along for the most part. Most of the posters here rallying against pedal assist saying they are faster and have a higher impact were the same issues the hikers were complaint about. We just came full circle.

  8. #158
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    No. Not long ago all trails were open to all non-motorized users. Wilderness included until 1984. The circle here is the threat of restarting every argument for keeping bike access on a new basis.

  9. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dantheman View Post
    Right? All the eMTBs that look worth riding cost $8k-10k. But, this is America where human-powered=elitist and motor-powered=of the people. A guy riding a $5k pedal bike is an elitist prick, but a guy driving a $20k RZR side-by-side that he towed behind his $60k diesel Superduty and $100k 5th wheel somehow isn't.

    IPA obsessions make you an asshole. Coors light just proves you don't give a fuck.

    It's just science.
    Besides the comet that killed the dinosaurs nothing has destroyed a species faster than entitled white people.-ajp

  10. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2FUNKY View Post
    Well said. This is what I also find laughable since not long ago, all hiking trails were off limits to pedal bikes. Now pretty much all forest service trails allow pedal bikes which is in conflict with much slower hikers, yet they both get along for the most part. Most of the posters here rallying against pedal assist saying they are faster and have a higher impact were the same issues the hikers were complaint about. We just came full circle.
    Most trails are closed to bikes. Human and battery powered.

  11. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by jono View Post
    No. Not long ago all trails were open to all non-motorized users. Wilderness included until 1984. The circle here is the threat of restarting every argument for keeping bike access on a new basis.
    Yeah, this.

    Quote Originally Posted by kidwoo View Post
    IPA obsessions make you an asshole. Coors light just proves you don't give a fuck.

    It's just science.
    Where does Rainier fit into this equation?

  12. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by kidwoo View Post
    IPA obsessions make you supporter of local businesses providing a cool buzz. Coors light just proves you are a nazi right wing racist and have no taste buds.

    It's just science.
    FIFY

  13. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by ill-advised strategy View Post
    “And I’m so impressed you’re able to stay out of prison with that personality disorder you’ve got there, fantastic job!”

    'Merica.

  14. #164
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  15. #165
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    Probably we’re all mostly thinking of our own home spots, but those are all very different so we’re all kind of arguing apples and oranges. It would be nice to think everyone will be thoughtful and do what’s best for the most people for the longest time, but mostly it seems like small gtoups of really entrenched aggro people always dominate the agenda with these things.

    As far as elitism goes, a middle aged normal guy can have a great time trail riding on a $500 suzuki...jeans and a helmet. Same guy is in for a few thousand and a lot of suffering if he wsnts to mtb the same stuff.

  16. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by ill-advised strategy View Post
    As far as elitism goes, a middle aged normal guy can have a great time trail riding on a $500 suzuki...jeans and a helmet. Same guy is in for a few thousand and a lot of suffering if he wsnts to mtb the same stuff.
    My rigid singlespeed 29'er cost me about $300. Also, I don't think anyone here is against moto's on moto trails.

  17. #167
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    I didn't realize this but e-bikes are banned from public land 'natural surface' trails in Washington. This law was recently passed through the WA legislature and signed by the Governor. It provides for local land managers to use as they see fit.

    https://nsmb.com/articles/washington...-bikes-trails/

  18. #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by californiagrown View Post
    But yet you have no problem using a machine with space age technology which allows yourself explore mountains and areas you otherwise wouldn't be able to because you are not in good enough shape to cover the distance/elevation. Why are you in support of machines on what were previously hiker only trails, but not low powered e-bikes? Or do you just blindly agree with whatever rules you are told?

    Just because current rules exist, doesn't mean they shouldn't evolve with the times and with new technology. You can follow rules, while disagreeing with them.
    I think that this is a very local/regional thing. Here in Montana, all wheeled access is under attack all the time. As soon as a motor is introduced into the conversation it will become much more difficult to even hold on to what we have left. If you want to E-bike, more power to you. I am 60 and can still ride and will continue to do so.

    A motor is a motor and non-motorized means exactly that. That is not an argument based on opinion, that is a fact.

  19. #169
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dantheman View Post
    Right? All the eMTBs that look worth riding cost $8k-10k. But, this is America where human-powered=elitist and motor-powered=of the people. A guy riding a $5k pedal bike is an elitist prick, but a guy driving a $20k RZR side-by-side that he towed behind his $60k diesel Superduty and $100k 5th wheel somehow isn't.
    lol... nailed it.

  20. #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by Not bunion View Post
    I think that this is a very local/regional thing. Here in Montana, all wheeled access is under attack all the time. As soon as a motor is introduced into the conversation it will become much more difficult to even hold on to what we have left. If you want to E-bike, more power to you. I am 60 and can still ride and will continue to do so.

    A motor is a motor and non-motorized means exactly that. That is not an argument based on opinion, that is a fact.
    Yeah, its an issue of possibly ruining access for all MTBers if e-bikes just start riding wherever they please. IDK if anyone really disputes this. Its all the other stupid, self serving reasons people give for banning ebikes on trails that grind my gears (fully intended).

    Also, i think that e-bikes should start to lobby and advocate for trail access. I think that e-bikes are another great toy with a lot of cool possibilities and figuring out their land use sooner than later is a good thing.

  21. #171
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeeLau View Post
    Golden Cycling Association cannot work on trails where ebikes are permitted. Insurance prohibits it and limits them to non motorized

    RSTBC your land manager prohibits ebikes on non motorized trails regulating them as motorized

    The batshit fundamentalist protect the endangered redleggedfrog/moutain-unicorn groups in Golden/Revy/Invermere look on mtbs as hikers with wheels because bikegroups in the area have worked for decades to convince them that they're different than Atv's or moto. I doubt that these sierraclub wannabes will understand the pedal assist distinction. They'll see motorized

    Lots of 5-7,000 poaches in the Selkirks/Western Rockies being done. So go do them with whatever you've got. Just don't put it on insta/snapchat/whatever. #blessed
    I was trying to use trail use advocacy history and relate it to these ebikes. The powers that be initially started with a “no” or only on fireroads. Then the sport grew and the fines started then the rogue trail builders and riders said a big fu to the man. Only then did the powers that be sit down with the “reasonable” mtb advocates(despite the powers that be initial stance of “no” to reasonable discussion). The advocates wouldn’t be at the table without the rogues. You can’t be just handing out fines and eventually locking people up for recreating outdoors . Especially when you consider the minimal environmental effect relative to a lot of other pastimes(4 wheeling, moto, rv’s etc etc etc). They realized mountain biking wasn’t going anywhere and they better sit down at the table and find a place for them that works for everyone. Same with enduro moto, they’d be on mtb trails unless you give them a spot to recreate. You can’t just say no. They’re not going away. Same with imba and their initial no steep trail stance. That shit isn’t going to work. People want steep, so boom we now have rock armour and other trail building techniques. I’m not rushing out to buy an e bike but they look fun af and ,more importantly, they aren’t going anywhere . You can’t tell a guy on his 7” travel 8” rotored whiz bang ebike that he has to stay on rail trails. Shit isn’t going to fly. They’re fun af and a healthy pursuit. Whether or not you want to use one is irrelovent but they want to be on mtb like trails and they will be in a short period of time. At the bike shows they’ve gone from one bike at the back of their displays thT just show fancy tech to being front row centre and dominating the bike shows. All other western countries have seen sales go from single digit % sales to more than 50% of bike sales in a year or 2. Off-road ebike riding is going to put pressure on trail decision making. That’s life. Existing mtb riders are going to try it, ebike commuters are going to venture off road, others are going to jump right in to off road e biking. It’s seems more positive than negative. I don’t know where they’ll fit in but make no mistaken they’re here to stay and it’s going to grow fast initially. You can waste energy staving off the imminent growth and off road usage or figure the rules. The rules are going to have to make sense though. Fines and locking people up are a waste of resources for a healthy beneficial activity that could be added fun.

  22. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by grinch View Post
    I was trying to use trail use advocacy history and relate it to these ebikes. The powers that be initially started with a “no” or only on fireroads. Then the sport grew and the fines started then the rogue trail builders and riders said a big fu to the man. Only then did the powers that be sit down with the “reasonable” mtb advocates(despite the powers that be initial stance of “no” to reasonable discussion). The advocates wouldn’t be at the table without the rogues. You can’t be just handing out fines and eventually locking people up for recreating outdoors . Especially when you consider the minimal environmental effect relative to a lot of other pastimes(4 wheeling, moto, rv’s etc etc etc). They realized mountain biking wasn’t going anywhere and they better sit down at the table and find a place for them that works for everyone. Same with enduro moto, they’d be on mtb trails unless you give them a spot to recreate. You can’t just say no. They’re not going away. Same with imba and their initial no steep trail stance. That shit isn’t going to work. People want steep, so boom we now have rock armour and other trail building techniques. I’m not rushing out to buy an e bike but they look fun af and ,more importantly, they aren’t going anywhere . You can’t tell a guy on his 7” travel 8” rotored whiz bang ebike that he has to stay on rail trails. Shit isn’t going to fly. They’re fun af and a healthy pursuit. Whether or not you want to use one is irrelovent but they want to be on mtb like trails and they will be in a short period of time. At the bike shows they’ve gone from one bike at the back of their displays thT just show fancy tech to being front row centre and dominating the bike shows. All other western countries have seen sales go from single digit % sales to more than 50% of bike sales in a year or 2. Off-road ebike riding is going to put pressure on trail decision making. That’s life. Existing mtb riders are going to try it, ebike commuters are going to venture off road, others are going to jump right in to off road e biking. It’s seems more positive than negative. I don’t know where they’ll fit in but make no mistaken they’re here to stay and it’s going to grow fast initially. You can waste energy staving off the imminent growth and off road usage or figure the rules. The rules are going to have to make sense though. Fines and locking people up are a waste of resources for a healthy beneficial activity that could be added fun.
    https://writingcenter.unc.edu/tips-a...ls/paragraphs/

  23. #173
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    ^^ Thank you.

  24. #174
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    Quote Originally Posted by californiagrown View Post
    Yeah, its an issue of possibly ruining access for all MTBers if e-bikes just start riding wherever they please. IDK if anyone really disputes this. Its all the other stupid, self serving reasons people give for banning ebikes on trails that grind my gears (fully intended).

    Also, i think that e-bikes should start to lobby and advocate for trail access. I think that e-bikes are another great toy with a lot of cool possibilities and figuring out their land use sooner than later is a good thing.

    All very valid points.

  25. #175
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    Electric Bike Thread

    I’m not writing it again. If you can’t figure out the message sorry




    Coles notes



    E bikes are coming. Lock up yo daughters

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