Electric Bike Thread

[toast2266]

jackstraw-

You are missing the point. MTBers have been fighting for years to maintain access to riding areas, and a critical part of the argument has been that they are a purely human-powered device. If ebikes start flooding trails that USFS, BLM, or other management agencies have designated solely for non-motorized use there is a very high probability that those trails will get closed to bikes of all kinds.

For any and all areas where motorized use is allowed or land managers have specifically decided to allow ebikes, rock on.

This.

If people want to ride ebikes on moto legal trails and roads, by all means, have fun. Otherwise, fuck off. Just because they don't make much power and the throttle actuation is goofy doesn't somehow make them not a motorized vehicle.

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[jono]

Claiming anything is the same as something different is silly. Motors are motors. If they need places to go where they're the only motors then get to work. In my neck of the woods I'd much rather share singletrack with a moto than pretty much any other trail user, so taking an e-bike to those places seems fine.

But user management should be trail specific in every instance and e-bikes should be no different. No blanket bans, and no lumping different users into the same bucket arbitrarily. We have things in common as well as differences. Go forth and get along.

One notable difference: discussion of trail damage as a function of weight misses the fact that human powered bikes never have a gear low enough to give the rear tire more tractive force on the dirt than a hiker. With a motor added that changes unless first gear is a lot higher. Low gear roosts go up and the balance of impacts from "bikes" changes if e-bikes are just thrown into the mix everywhere. Which is why the Sierra Club's bike arm (IMBA) is so eager to do so.

[JerseyDave]

E bikes as commuter and cargo bikes 100 percent awesome BTW. Electric motors on fat bikes for SNOW riding 100% awesome. Ebikes given access to all mtb trails....lame. If you are very old or handicapped....OK. My new line of questioning when I see an able bodies person on an EMBT will be, "It's great to see a disabled person out in the woods! You really are a great example of overcoming adversity out riding in your condition."

[ill-advised strategy]

My new line of questioning when I see an able bodies person on an EMBT will be, "It's great to see a disabled person out in the woods! You really are a great example of overcoming adversity out riding in your condition."

“And I’m so impressed you’re able to stay out of prison with that personality disorder you’ve got there, fantastic job!”

[smartyiak]

I just ask that we do not adopt the term "acoustic bike." It just sounds stupid.

[El Chupacabra]

I just ask that we do not adopt the term "acoustic bike." It just sounds stupid.

This, X100000.

Immediately on my list of annoying cycling terms, like "kit."

[buttahflake]

“And I’m so impressed you’re able to stay out of prison with that personality disorder you’ve got there, fantastic job!”

Yeah, DaveNJ has wicked, ‘little man’ syndrome. He threatened to choke me out till I was dead once on this forum. He’s not stable.

[Flexon Phil]

I just ask that we do not adopt the term "acoustic bike." It just sounds stupid.

Analog?

I agree on the terminology point...I will give you that. Just like at one point we had "shaped skis", now they are just skis. With almost every bike manufacturer offering these and really supporting them and the strength they have in Europe..they are hear to stay.

[LeeLau]

If i was you i would check out HaiBike, Specialized, and any of the other big MTB brands. HaiBike is really trying to get into the market by signing some pro MTbers, and most popular MTB brands now have an E-bike in their collection.



You should probably only ride your bike on fully legal sanctioned trails then... otherwise you risk being awfully hypocritical

rules are rules, right? haha

3 out of 4 Haibikes in a local shop have battery issues. 5 of 5 Levos were good. Specialized seems to be more reliable

[californiagrown]

Ebikes are a weird hill to plant your flag on when decrying elitism.

Eh, the same argument that some people are using against E-bikes is the one propogated by Sierra Club folks and equestrians back in the day against normal MTBs: that no machines should be allowed in these pristine wilderness areas. Its really all just NIMBY from folks unwilling to share their resources with more people... even though the very large majority of those folks already take from their trails much, much more than they give back in digging and money.

[californiagrown]

3 out of 4 Haibikes in a local shop have battery issues. 5 of 5 Levos were good. Specialized seems to be more reliable

Can you power e-bike batteries with those portable solar panels? like throw a flexible solar panel on your pack and get a 15+% charge out of it as a backup should you run out of battery? Also, if a battery does fail out on the trail, does the bike go back to purely pedal powered in neutral so its just a heavier bike? Bikepacking could be really cool on on of those things.

One notable difference: discussion of trail damage as a function of weight misses the fact that human powered bikes never have a gear low enough to give the rear tire more tractive force on the dirt than a hiker. With a motor added that changes unless first gear is a lot higher. Low gear roosts go up and the balance of impacts from "bikes" changes if e-bikes are just thrown into the mix everywhere.

Are you saying that normal MTBs don't spin their tires because gearing isnt low enough? Cause that just isn't true at all, folks spin out their rear tire all the time on loose steep climbs. Or is your point flying over my head?

[muted]

Ebikes are a weird hill to plant your flag on when decrying elitism.

if I do get an eMTBike, I'll have to get a turtleneck, fine leather gloves, pleated shorts, and a pipe. I'll be puffing fine tobacco while you sweaty low-class peddlers will be huffing and puffing up the climbs. Cheerio! To the top!!

[californiagrown]

if I do get an eMTBike, I'll have to get a turtleneck, fine leather gloves, pleated shorts, and a pipe. I'll be puffing fine tobacco while you sweaty low-class peddlers will be huffing and puffing up the climbs. Cheerio! To the top!!

Would make a funny Youtube video with all the reactions youd get haha.

[jackstraw]

Along the lines of the outcry when they put in the Kachina Peak lift at Taos or Mittersill at Cannon; some thought (and still think) it was sacrilegious....

You have to bring that up in this thread! Both of those lifts made me want to drink!
Fwiw, I don't think that is the same as what we're discussing here.

A Honda motocross motorcycle is so much different than a pedal-assist bicycle.

Can anybody else who has ridden dirtbikes back me up on this? It's not the same thing.

Yes, I am a former moto and I don't think anyone disagrees with you.

I like ebike for commuting, folks that need assistance on dirt (or anywhere), and they do not belong on trails designated non-motorized at this time. Maybe some trails will allow them that currently do not allow motors, but that would be a case by case basis.

[jono]

Are you saying that normal MTBs don't spin their tires because gearing isnt low enough? Cause that just isn't true at all, folks spin out their rear tire all the time on loose steep climbs. Or is your point flying over my head?

No. I said low gear roosts will go up meaning there will be more of them than there are now. Everyone slips, hikers included, so I'm sure this is obvious. What you may be missing is the relevance of it. There are a lot of studies out there saying that bicycle use on trails does the same or very slightly less damage to the trails compared to hikers. This is a key point when discussing access to backcountry, since, as noted, the hiker groups' only real opposition to bikes right now is social, not environmental. Change the impact and lump it in with bikes and that argument starts to change. The social argument changes instantly. I'm not opposed to e-bikes, even for some backcountry, but they need to be specifically allowed. Otherwise the blanket bike bans we already have will expand to cover every place an e-bike isn't appropriate.

[El Chupacabra]

I have an e-bike that I built for commuting -- a 700c hybrid with a Bafang BBSHD kit. It has pedal-sensing assist (not torque sensing, just rotation of the crank), and a handle throttle that overrides pedal input. You can ride it just like a motorcycle (throttle only), but the battery doesn't last long doing that. The limitation is really the size/power of the battery pack. Luna Cycle, the company I bought it through, builds some crazy high-powered bicycles that are basically motorcycles.

I've never ridden an e-bike on a trail. A torque sensing motor + speed limiter seems like something that wouldn't adversely affect trails. However, as repeatedly said in this thread, it would be nearly impossible to police whether someone on a trail has a bike like that, or instead has something like Luna's home-built e-motor/bicycle. If I wanted, I could easily install my Bafang motor onto a mountain bike, and add a giant battery pack (think bikepacking triangle bag filled with battery), and rip uphill at 20-25 mph on trail.

There's no easy solution here. I agree that e-bikes on trails is an issue that is going to push more conflict between mtb'ers and other trail users. Sierra Club and equestrian types who hate bicycles are going to use e-bikes as just another reason to shut down trails from bicycle use.

[GoldMember]

Where I typically ride, having e-bikes share the trails wouldn't be/isn't a big deal. I don't think I've seen any out there but may just not have recognized them if going in opposite directions but, I hardly see anyone out there, anyway so for me, not a big deal. With that said, I ride in a state park where the trails are hiking/horse/non-motorized vehicles with adjacency to an ORV park for motorized vehicles. In the ORV park, it's mostly motos or ATV's running around and incompatible to human powered bikes. I don't know that e-bikes should be restricted to the ORV area as they would seem incompatible to motos, too.

What does strike me about this argument is that, even though e-bikes currently are limited in speed, they may not be in the future or if modified. It would seem that caution in opening trails to them makes sense as while not motorcycles, per se, they are motorized vehicles. You have to draw the line somewhere and that's the current line. There may be nuances among that group in general but the fact is that they're motorized and therefore restricted from our park trails. Again, I wouldn't really care since there's such little use where I ride but if our state park opened up for these things, other more heavily used state parks would likely have to open to them, too. That will likely cause conflicts and that's why caution needs to be exercised in opening trails to them.

Now my really big bitch are the horses. If you take your dog hiking and it shits on the trail, the expectation is for you to bag it and haul it out. Horse riders? Not so much. I am constantly dodging horse shit in the middle of the trail and am not always successful.... Damn horses should be required to pick up their own shit.

[californiagrown]

No. I said low gear roosts will go up meaning there will be more of them than there are now. Everyone slips, hikers included, so I'm sure this is obvious. What you may be missing is the relevance of it. There are a lot of studies out there saying that bicycle use on trails does the same or very slightly less damage to the trails compared to hikers. This is a key point when discussing access to backcountry, since, as noted, the hiker groups' only real opposition to bikes right now is social, not environmental. Change the impact and lump it in with bikes and that argument starts to change. The social argument changes instantly. I'm not opposed to e-bikes, even for some backcountry, but they need to be specifically allowed. Otherwise the blanket bike bans we already have will expand to cover every place an e-bike isn't appropriate.

thats a fair point. IMO the only "real" argument against E-bikes is the access issues that they could bring upon the MTB community as a whole. But, logically, it all really comes down to responsible trail users. I could easily skid, roost, drift, and take the french lines on my pedal bike on the BC trails, but i dont. Firstly because i dont want to hurt myself way out there, but also because i am fully aware of the trail stewardship aspect. If e-bikers are similarly aware, then they will ride in a non-destructive manner as well IMO.

I think it will take an industry wide push amongst manufacturers of Electric Mountain Bikes to not produce over powered bikes and make them hard to modify. that way, it will be much easier to tell the difference between a e-moto and a pedal-assist bike. there will always be the folks who break the rules, but the intent is to make them the negligible minority through the inconvenience and cost of modification.

[TahoeJ]

If people want to ride ebikes on moto legal trails and roads, by all means, have fun. Otherwise, fuck off. Just because they don't make much power and the throttle actuation is goofy doesn't somehow make them not a motorized vehicle.

I think those who are just glossing over this have not been privy to the ongoing battles over the years and are taking for granted how difficult it has been for regular MTBers to even have access (or maintain access) to a lot of trails. For example, the introduction of e-bikes has been a wet dream for the entitled hikers / equestrians in Marin County. Now they can start to lean on the e-bike excuse instead of faux-environmental bullshit. It's already becoming a standard talking point on top of all the other nonsense.

[toast2266]

I think those who are just glossing over this have not been privy to the ongoing battles over the years and are taking for granted how difficult it has been for regular MTBers to even have access (or maintain access) to a lot of trails.

Definitely.

By all means, I think there should be more moto legal trail, and thus more places where ebikes are allowed. And if the ebike crowd wants to go lobby land managers for access, that's awesome. But ebikers lumping themselves in with unpowered mountain bikes does a huge disservice to all of us and pisses me right off.

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[LeeLau]

Can you power e-bike batteries with those portable solar panels? like throw a flexible solar panel on your pack and get a 15+% charge out of it as a backup should you run out of battery? Also, if a battery does fail out on the trail, does the bike go back to purely pedal powered in neutral so its just a heavier bike? Bikepacking could be really cool on on of those things.





Are you saying that normal MTBs don't spin their tires because gearing isnt low enough? Cause that just isn't true at all, folks spin out their rear tire all the time on loose steep climbs. Or is your point flying over my head?

A friend who has a low gain solar panel tried toe recharge on a Bosch and it was "fiddly" and according to him it didn't work at all well. Ie the recharge ran out quickly. Perhaps a better high gain panel? But those are heavy to carry

When it fails it reverts to being a (heavy) bike. Not a killer bit definitely a problem for hike a bike and lifting over blowdown.

Some hopefully isolated battery burns when recharging home brew modifications. Haven't heard of the stock setups catching fire to date.

Fwiw the Bosch motors appear to be the most reliable at least from my limited geographical experience

[2FUNKY]

Man this thread delivers. Well done pedal fags.

[MultiVerse]

thats a fair point. IMO the only "real" argument against E-bikes is the access issues that they could bring upon the MTB community as a whole. But, logically, it all really comes down to responsible trail users. I could easily skid, roost, drift, and take the french lines on my pedal bike on the BC trails, but i dont. Firstly because i dont want to hurt myself way out there, but also because i am fully aware of the trail stewardship aspect. If e-bikers are similarly aware, then they will ride in a non-destructive manner as well IMO.

It's hard to say what the effect is with e-bikes but it's easy to see what more power does to trails when comparing single track that allows motos versus bikes only. Even when dirt bike riders are well behaved on technical trails where they just kind of putt putt along the moon dust is a lot deeper, especially in corners, the corners are more washed out, and the brake bumps are bigger.

[XXX-er]

I am a former moto and I don't think anyone disagrees with you.

I like ebike for commuting, folks that need assistance on dirt (or anywhere), and they do not belong on trails designated non-motorized at this time. Maybe some trails will allow them that currently do not allow motors, but that would be a case by case basis.

this^^ I have also run dirt bikes

Its not just a question of whether the e-bike is gona spin tires, a motor allows the rider to do more cycles of a trail before the rider gets tired so an E-bike is like 3 pedal bikes in terms of what it does to a non motorized trail, I doubt the E-bike rider is going to contribute 3 times as much to to the non-motorized trails

in any case if a bike has an electric motor its motorized and there are all kinds of places to ride something with a motor besides the non-motorized trails

[LeeLau]

I’m a bit surprised , not entirely surprised, to see a fair bit of open minded posts. It’s been almost a taboo topic. Be careful where you bring the subject up. It kind of reminds me of the early days when bikes started to get more specialized and separated between xc and dh. When there was nobody riding bikes we could go anywhere. There were no signs and no closures. I could ride anywhere in the national parks and did. Just off the pavement surrounding the townsite I could see my tracks 4 days later or if tracks had gone over them I could know who’s they were from their tire combo(there were only 6 or 8 tire options then). Then people started to discover the sport and signs went up. Timing allowed us to poach selectively for a few years. Then more people discovered it and then we had freeride/dh bikes or xc bikes. Sierra club , environmentalists, horse back riders and the law were now looking at mountain bikes as terrorists out to destroy the world(in spite of similar outside pursuits). Then the xc demographic was accepted . They promoted themselves as respectable citizens as opposed to the ruffian dhers . A lot of the xc riders threw dh riders under the bus using the same excuses that they were discriminated for . I’ve always just thought of myself as a mountain biker. Dh xc whatever. I like bikes on dirt. I would discuss the dh biker hate with friends and acquaintances and they would say “but your a downhiller”. Funny because I’ve road as much or more xc but because they only road xc and/or we’re scared to ride dh, I was a dh’er and because they didn’t or couldn’t do it dh riding was bad/evil for the same reason all mountain bikers years previously were ostracized. It’s not identical but the e bike thing has a familiar ring. I think there’s a time and a place and it’ll need regulations and signage but there’s certainly worse environmental 2 wheel pursuits that I’m ok with. There’s been a slight boost in bike sales were e bikes have been excepted and there’s been more miles covered but it’s been far from an onslaught. Populations are getting fitter because of them along with seasoned riders and lbs’ have seen a similar slight tic in business and trails are getting built with/because of them. It’s give and take but seems like the big picture is positive. The great trails we have now are by in large a result of the great bikes we have now. I can think of about 7 or 8 local high mountain loops that could easily be linked with these. Place is great now, it’d be unreal with a few 5-7000ft up and overs surrounding the town

Golden Cycling Association cannot work on trails where ebikes are permitted. Insurance prohibits it and limits them to non motorized

RSTBC your land manager prohibits ebikes on non motorized trails regulating them as motorized

The batshit fundamentalist protect the endangered redleggedfrog/moutain-unicorn groups in Golden/Revy/Invermere look on mtbs as hikers with wheels because bikegroups in the area have worked for decades to convince them that they're different than Atv's or moto. I doubt that these sierraclub wannabes will understand the pedal assist distinction. They'll see motorized

Lots of 5-7,000 poaches in the Selkirks/Western Rockies being done. So go do them with whatever you've got. Just don't put it on insta/snapchat/whatever. #blessed