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  1. #301
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    Quote Originally Posted by forty View Post
    do some of you really not feel that bicycling by its very nature is an activity that does not involve a motor and requires self propellant?
    Yep. I like riding riding lifts. I also like pedaling.
    My Montana has an East Infection

  2. #302
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    There is no doubt these machines are pretty cool tech and will open up new riding adventures. However, in the near term these guys are going create a shit ton of controversy and user conflicts in the semi to crowded riding areas near more urbanized locations. These areas do not need more conflict. Its already happening in Marin. The bike industry is, of course, all in because more sales, more $$. Wait until they start changing the standard axles sizes , battery attachments etc. each year on the new models. Specialized loves this. These guys are going to be huge and my guess is ebikes going to be the next major growth market for them as long as they can figure out how to squash them little pesty start ups. Local bike shops are pushing these guys like crack to the well heeled urbanite. New shops specializing in ebikes are sprouting up. We are doomed and most certainly headed for more constant whinning and finger pointing on all sides (its already started in this forum). I have lost a lot respect for Jeremy Jones, just another corporate promotion slut now or maybe always was but I was ignorant of that behavior.

    If you live in more uncrowded rural riding areas, enjoy!. My guess is that the conflict will be sorted out by the time its starts to impact you.

  3. #303
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    Quote Originally Posted by forty View Post
    do some of you really not feel that bicycling by its very nature is an activity that does not involve a motor and requires self propellant?

    it just seems so obvious to me... its the core defining aspect of cycling in my eyes...

    that isnt me saying ebikes are wrong or bad, its saying its not cycling and shouldnt piggyback off cycling culture and should develop its own framework and identity outside of the established long held cycling roots

    i also dont think convincing kids to get on bikes by video gamifying them is a step that will lead anywhere beneficial and only moves our culture further into spending money rather than putting in effort

    i feel like some of you are the first to bitch about participation trophies, but arent seeing the connection here, in my eyes this is the same shit, put in work, get reward, thats what makes bikes so radsauce, thats what makes skiing so radsauce, thats what makes things like watch collecting not radsauce, its pay to win encouragement culture imo
    Land managers and non biking groups see that an ebike is motorized. Because they're the actors with which sanctioned trails must coexist they're the important point of view.

    Anyone else here arguing that ebikes are different from motos is just wind in the air. It's the LMs and other user groups to which you'll have to make that difficult sell

  4. #304
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    Quote Originally Posted by klauss View Post
    As I previously said, I road one at a demo day here where they are currently allowed. The trail system is steeper with designated up and down trails. People also shuttle this area. The Pivot ebike also has a 10k price tag, and while heavy, I had a really good time on the downhill, but also the uphill. Sure, I can get down a bit faster on my standard bike, but I was jumping the ebike, using the built up features, and having fun. The weight on the ebike is really low on the frame. Overall a really fun time riding it.

    I don't plan on buying an ebike anytime soon, but in systems where it is steeper and already is setup for car shuttle, these make sense to me. Think ridge lines with long approaches and steep descents - designated up and down trails. While meandering 2 way XC trails along rivers and such, not so much.

    I got as good as or even a better workout on the ebike than I typically do at this area because much more ground was covered in the same amount of time.
    On easier, naturally faster less technical trails to me the ebikes weight wasn't a big deal.

    On technical slow trails the ebikes weight was quite apparent. Lots of weight shifts and body english required to make that bike work.

    What kinds of trail were you riding the Pivot? Never tried one yet

  5. #305
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    I was also questioning why she was such a proponent of keeping wilderness areas only open to those willing to get there 100% under their own power without the need for technology... but oh yeah, its cool if you use a $4000 machine to get there too, because she currently owns one... but its not cool if you use an extremely similar machine because she doesnt have one.
    Maybe that is because it is the current battle a lot of us are fighting. The difference between and E-bike and any human powered bike is painfully clear.

    The groups we are fighting, yes fighting, would love nothing more than to be able to say, "Look it has a motor".

    We already get lumped in with Motorcycles a lot of the time and it requires a lot of patience and education to counter that.

    They have already fucked the motorized users over big time here and we (Mtn Bikers) are also getting hosed, again.

    So, again. It depends on where you live and what your access issues revolve around.

    Here we have areas that have been open to bikes for years being closed as RWA, we have areas designated as WSA up to 25-30 years ago now being managed as Wilderness and we can no longer ride there. Then there are the regular USFS trails. Some now have black out days where no bikes are allowed, it is a Shared system except there are no days with no hikers or horses. Even in a State as huge as Montana, access is a big deal and this isn't going to help things.

  6. #306
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    Quote Originally Posted by forty View Post
    do some of you really not feel that bicycling by its very nature is an activity that does not involve a motor and requires self propellant?
    I'm mostly driven by the propulsion from gravity really. In fact I've geared most of my life around coasting, aka, being lazy and letting another force do all the work.


    But then again I'm a mountainbiker, not a dirt cyclist. The pedaling is always just a means to an end. That end being the coasting part. Same with skiing. We do it for coasting, which is using another force. Nobody gets into that shit for the skinning. Well maybe a few do but those people™ are fucking weirdos and should be discouraged.
    Besides the comet that killed the dinosaurs nothing has destroyed a species faster than entitled white people.-ajp

  7. #307
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redsmurfer View Post
    my guess is ebikes going to be the next major growth market for them
    it already is a huge driver of growth for the bike co's and even the downstream co's like Fox, bc it was a category that basically didn't exist prior
    skid luxury

  8. #308
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    Quote Originally Posted by b-bear View Post
    it already is a huge driver of growth for the bike co's and even the downstream co's like Fox, bc it was a category that basically didn't exist prior
    aand that's reeeaaaallllly what it's all about.


    Like bags said, those things ride like shit going downhill. All they really do is make biking easier for people who didn't really have an interest in biking. Or a waning interest.
    Besides the comet that killed the dinosaurs nothing has destroyed a species faster than entitled white people.-ajp

  9. #309
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountainman View Post
    Yep. I like riding riding lifts. I also like pedaling.
    Quote Originally Posted by kidwoo View Post
    I'm mostly driven by the propulsion from gravity really. In fact I've geared most of my life around coasting, aka, being lazy and letting another force do all the work.


    But then again I'm a mountainbiker, not a dirt cyclist. The pedaling is always just a means to an end. That end being the coasting part. Same with skiing. We do it for coasting, which is using another force. Nobody gets into that shit for the skinning. Well maybe a few do but those people™ are fucking weirdos and should be discouraged.
    im all for lifts and shuttling, i ride with guys on ebikes, i would let them tow me up if the motors would do it, i hate pedaling my mtb, thats what road bikes are for...

    but by the definition of bikes that ive always known they dont have motors, thats been the standard since the beginning and changing it now has consequences that i dont think are nearly worth it when they could simply create their own culture from the ground up

    just like slapping a motor on a bike seems like a really shitty engineering answer, someone should design an electric 2 wheeled offroad transportation device that doesnt rely on bike crap and really kick ass, the fact that the industry is trying to sneak in on an already established market and change the game is bullshit to me, its not the product, its the way its being marketed that i have beef with

  10. #310
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    Quote Originally Posted by Not bunion View Post
    Maybe that is because it is the current battle a lot of us are fighting. The difference between and E-bike and any human powered bike is painfully clear.

    The groups we are fighting, yes fighting, would love nothing more than to be able to say, "Look it has a motor".

    We already get lumped in with Motorcycles a lot of the time and it requires a lot of patience and education to counter that.

    They have already fucked the motorized users over big time here and we (Mtn Bikers) are also getting hosed, again.

    So, again. It depends on where you live and what your access issues revolve around.

    Here we have areas that have been open to bikes for years being closed as RWA, we have areas designated as WSA up to 25-30 years ago now being managed as Wilderness and we can no longer ride there. Then there are the regular USFS trails. Some now have black out days where no bikes are allowed, it is a Shared system except there are no days with no hikers or horses. Even in a State as huge as Montana, access is a big deal and this isn't going to help things.
    Ive agreed whole-heartedly with this point many times in this thread so far. In fact, i think it is the one singular point that has logic and truth to it, and doesnt rely on some misplaced jealousy.

  11. #311
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    Quote Originally Posted by kidwoo View Post
    I'm mostly driven by the propulsion from gravity really. In fact I've geared most of my life around coasting, aka, being lazy and letting another force do all the work.


    But then again I'm a mountainbiker, not a dirt cyclist. The pedaling is always just a means to an end. That end being the coasting part. Same with skiing. We do it for coasting, which is using another force. Nobody gets into that shit for the skinning. Well maybe a few do but those people™ are fucking weirdos and should be discouraged.
    That's weird. I love skinning.

  12. #312
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    This is a nice summary of eBikers

  13. #313
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtngirl79 View Post
    That's weird. I love skinning.
    Check the battery on your sarcasm meter.

  14. #314
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    OK then. I needed PR relief and though I'd start a thread in a new room. How did that go for me

    A dog bit me a couple days ago while riding my Schwinn. What are you guys packing? Squirt gun with a water/amonia spray. Airsoft pistol? Once bitten twice shy?
    A few people feel the rain. Most people just get wet.

  15. #315
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    I was/am pretty anti-ebike but a have seen a good argument for the other side. I've got an ex coworker that is in his late 50's, has had two heart attacks, and is missing one leg below the knee from a climbing accident long ago. He likes riding bikes, but it's harder for him now. Now he gets to ride to work, and hit some mellow trails on the way if he likes. Hard to argue against that.

  16. #316
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeeLau View Post
    On easier, naturally faster less technical trails to me the ebikes weight wasn't a big deal.

    On technical slow trails the ebikes weight was quite apparent. Lots of weight shifts and body english required to make that bike work.

    What kinds of trail were you riding the Pivot? Never tried one yet
    That's a good point. The trails I rode were mostly high speed flow trails with high berms and moderate jumps. With some other more DH chunk stuff mixed in. Nothing very difficult or very technical. blue with some black. On the few chunkier slow sections or the handful of drops to tighter turns/sections and log stream crossings where balance matters I didn't feel very overwhelmed by the weight, but I could see that coming into play on real gnarly technical stuff.

    To me these bikes are more like lift skiing, except the uphill is much more fun than a chairlift and you are still getting some exercise while the downhill is pretty much like my standard bike but a bit heavier. I wouldn't care to ride these things where I ride my dirt bike.
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  17. #317
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    Quote Originally Posted by Get.Kronk View Post
    I was/am pretty anti-ebike but a have seen a good argument for the other side. I've got an ex coworker that is in his late 50's, has had two heart attacks, and is missing one leg below the knee from a climbing accident long ago. He likes riding bikes, but it's harder for him now. Now he gets to ride to work, and hit some mellow trails on the way if he likes. Hard to argue against that.
    The ADA is like the mob... actually, I don't think even Mexican drug cartels would take on the ADA.

    As soon as precedent is set that disability can allow motors into non motorized areas then all terrain wheelchairs are going into the wilderness...



    And the ADA has strict privacy laws. If someone says they are disabled, they are disabled.

  18. #318
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtngirl79 View Post
    The ADA is like the mob... actually, I don't think even Mexican drug cartels would take on the ADA.

    As soon as precedent is set that disability can allow motors into non motorized areas then all terrain wheelchairs are going into the wilderness...



    And the ADA has strict privacy laws. If someone says they are disabled, they are disabled.
    Tell us more about your experience with disability and the laws surrounding protections.

  19. #319
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    Quote Originally Posted by forty View Post
    im all for lifts and shuttling, i ride with guys on ebikes, i would let them tow me up if the motors would do it, i hate pedaling my mtb, thats what road bikes are for...

    but by the definition of bikes that ive always known they dont have motors, thats been the standard since the beginning and changing it now has consequences that i dont think are nearly worth it when they could simply create their own culture from the ground up

    just like slapping a motor on a bike seems like a really shitty engineering answer, someone should design an electric 2 wheeled offroad transportation device that doesnt rely on bike crap and really kick ass, the fact that the industry is trying to sneak in on an already established market and change the game is bullshit to me, its not the product, its the way its being marketed that i have beef with
    I don't even shuttle or ride lifts that much. I'm fine climbing whatever it's just not why I'm out there.


    I hear you on the half assery of e-bikes. They're like dual sport....not really good at either.

    Both of these iterations look way more fun

    the real thing
    https://www.altamotors.co/

    the lightweight option
    https://www.electricbike.com/sur-ron/
    Besides the comet that killed the dinosaurs nothing has destroyed a species faster than entitled white people.-ajp

  20. #320
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    Quote Originally Posted by Get.Kronk View Post
    I was/am pretty anti-ebike but a have seen a good argument for the other side. I've got an ex coworker that is in his late 50's, has had two heart attacks, and is missing one leg below the knee from a climbing accident long ago. He likes riding bikes, but it's harder for him now. Now he gets to ride to work, and hit some mellow trails on the way if he likes. Hard to argue against that.
    This needs some respect the same way bikes should be allowed where they're appropriate for the trail (W or not) and the same way the disabled should be allowed to get out there by whatever means they need to use. Just because a lot of able bodies ride bikes shouldn't stop bikes from being used by people whose disabilities leave them with the ability to ride. Nor should anyone have to justify the level of their disability to get out there. The current system is if you have a bad knee and can't hike anymore you're supposed to sit on your couch and take courage from the fact that other people are hiking--but only hiking--in your favorite Wilderness. That's bullshit. The guy with one bad knee has just as much right to be there as anyone else and denying him because it's more convenient to ban people by class (as long as you aren't in that class) than to let a few more impede on "your" solitude is the height of American hypocrisy.

    Mtngirl isn't up to speed on all the facts, so I'll give her a pass, but to correct one simple thing: the ADA allows electric wheelchairs in Federally Designated Wilderness. Already. The only stipulation is that the electric wheelchair has to be suitable for use indoors. Know what isn't suitable for use indoors? Gas engines. Pretty much anything else goes. That's the law today.

    I am 100% on board that an e-bike avalanche on non-motorized trails would be a disaster (by design). But when the jackasses on their couches finally die and the system can be fixed, the use of bikes and e-bikes by those who wouldn't get out otherwise should not be denied.

  21. #321
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    Quote Originally Posted by jono View Post

    Mtngirl isn't up to speed on all the facts, so I'll give her a pass, but to correct one simple thing: the ADA allows electric wheelchairs in Federally Designated Wilderness. Already. The only stipulation is that the electric wheelchair has to be suitable for use indoors. Know what isn't suitable for use indoors? Gas engines. Pretty much anything else goes. That's the law today.
    I'm aware of the standard. There is also a 36inch width restriction and manuverability requirements. The device has to be manufactured for the sole purpose of being a wheel chair, too so an electric 4 wheel would not count. These requirements makes it unlikely that anyone will be bringing a power chair far into the backcountry.... or people (same ones in this thread that wanna ride 5000 ft in a day without putting in the work) will claim a disability in order to use an electric 4 wheeler disguised as a wheel chair to go on a hike they aren't fit enough for.

    If we loosen the laws it's going to turn to a shitshow.

  22. #322
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    True, but not the way you think. The shitshow will be that all the whining Wildernuts and Vandemans of the world will cry foul because they can't tell the difference and just want everything with wheels kicked out of their publicly-owned Church of People Who Aren't Not Me (tm). The only thing needed for the shitshow you fear is a little engineering. Which is already happening.

  23. #323
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    Like peacocks and pigs on airplanes?

  24. #324
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    Definitely!

  25. #325
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    Quote Originally Posted by kidwoo View Post
    aand that's reeeaaaallllly what it's all about.


    Like bags said, those things ride like shit going downhill. All they really do is make biking easier for people who didn't really have an interest in biking. Or a waning interest.
    QFT.

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