Electric Bike Thread

[kidwoo]

https://www.fs.usda.gov/detail/tahoe...d=FSEPRD719803

Chock another one up for the wealthy bullies!

https://www.bikemag.com/news/e-bike-...tional-forest/

Just FYI to anyone that cares. The tahoe national forest has a project going on right now to extend a motorized trail network. Since that announcement that frorider linked, they've revised the proposal to add a bunch of e-bike specific trails, including converting the designation of a few non-motorized trails to multi-use, specifically for e-bikes.

I don't have a dog in this fight but this is a little bit of a petri dish with ebikes on FS land. If you live near Truckee/Nevada City/Foresthill or even plan on visiting, you should submit a comment that you support these decisions. Word has it this page will be updated soon with some new docs and an extended comment period announcement.

https://www.fs.usda.gov/project/?project=57704

[meter-man]

KW, thanks for posting.

I don't have a dog in the fight either, but the approval process for the e-bike opening on the TNF appeared to be quite flawed without required public notice and env assessment. I'm guessing, but I presume TNF did what they wanted, and when they got sued, their lawyers said "we'll never win in court. Let's settle and then do it right."

Unfortunately, I think these clowns will now be emboldened to gum up the approval process for any trails proposed to be "opened" to e-bikes.

Meanwhile, e-bikes will be riding all Tahoe trails all summer, with no discernible impact (except analog riders getting passed on the uphills), and no enforcement at all.

However, based on my non-scientific anecdotal observations, the e-MTB market is upscale, older, and with disposable income and time. In other words, people who will fund and lead litigation to open trails to e-bikes. The key will be to get e-bike advocates to marshal their support to push for more openings. Assuming they want to ride these $6000 bikes they just bought.

[kidwoo]

I thought the same thing you did with regards to circumventing public process but there's a little more to it that I'm not going to get into publicly. But the TNF had a stronger case that lawyers in DC were basically too lazy to fight on. It's unfortunately, incredibly typical. They rarely fight anything that's directly related to fire danger these days. Rolling over is easier for the agency and they have a long history of it.

But yeah, it won't change anything. 99% of ebike traffic......well yeah, we all see it.

I'm with you on what's a pretty big demographic buying these things. Yes disposable income but also being somewhat new to mtb, not likely to have a clue about land access issues. People said the same thing about mountainbikers in general for years: well to do, can mount their own legal battles. It still hasn't materialized. Instead we have the feckless IMBA dorks telling agencies how much they speak for mountainbikers while getting behind more wilderness designations in exchange for little townside bobsled tracks.

I do see it as just one more instance of likely creating another population that ignores rules because 'the rules' and dumb, and are just a result of rich whiners pushing around the forest service with lawyers.

[livefreerdie]

The idea that we can't enforce the current rules means we should relax the rules... that's how we lose access. Perfect ammunition for the wilderfolk. The top officials in government could all be swapped out a year from now. I have a dog in this fight. It's 4 million acres of Montana Forest Service land that will have plans revised in the next several years. The rules here are currently black and white. It has a motor, it's only allowed on motorized trails. The complaints about grey area for e-bikes are bullshit (outside of Tahoe, they did make that confusing).

[kidwoo]

The idea that we can't enforce the current rules means we should relax the rules... that's how we lose access. Perfect ammunition for the wilderfolk.

You really think they need ammunition?

They don't. Closing land to send out fundraising emails claiming they 'saved/conserved/preserved' something is literally their business model. They're on a holy mission!

[livefreerdie]

You're right, nothing will stop those orgs from trying to get us kicked out. However, we are at a point where we are established enough that we have some respect with the land managers. They probably laugh at some of the weak arguments used against us now that they have heard them all. Lumping us in with a a new technology and a motorized group is not going to help the managers defend anything that looks good for mountain bikers if there is an administration change.

[grinch]

Different areas have different problems. If eebs are allowed for the same reasons an mtb is allowed, and reasoned , that would apply to an emtb.
Im impressed with my east coast home towns attitude. They have a solid community and bike club. All the shops support it and its a real group effort. Even though most are a combo of xc/road, most are open to other people wanting to build dh tracks, shuttle if possible, or ride their emtb's. They just looked at the facts and realized that theyre all part of the community. As a result there is no real conflict and theyre able to respond to municipal regulations as one group.
Around here in revy there semi open to them but dont fully get it. Theyve allowed them only on dh trails here. Thats fine but i think theyre excluding a huge benefit to the community and possible participation in the club that way. For instance, i cant take local, currently non mtb friends that are generally active, out on a dh trail. They have no experience nor would they want to throw themselves down a dh trail. At the same time they dont want to rent a trail bike to huff up an xc ride one day. Theyd rather go for a walk or hike or golf or boating or etc etc. Give them an emtb and theyd be all in to explore the xc trails. There'd be no conflict. Theyre not going to be flying up the trail. No experience. The people with experience should be fully versed on trail ediquette. Its kind of weird that the places theyve allowed them do no service to increase membership or community participation. There will always be someone that doesnt abide by trail etiquette. The only close trail collision ive had in town was an ultra fast xc guy flying into a blind corner on a 2 way trail but thats only one instance. Poor choices can be made by any user group and he was as fast as any user group

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[kidwoo]

You're right, nothing will stop those orgs from trying to get us kicked out. However, we are at a point where we are established enough that we have some respect with the land managers. They probably laugh at some of the weak arguments used against us now that they have heard them all. Lumping us in with a a new technology and a motorized group is not going to help the managers defend anything that looks good for mountain bikers if there is an administration change.

Just fyi, there's what goes on in your local forest in the planning, comment, objection and signed ROD phases......and then there's what happens when the wilderness society files a suit. None of that gets handled at your local forest. It's wholly in DC at that point. It's what just happened in that tahoe suit. Not even the regional foresters were involved....they're the ones that helped the tahoe do what they did in trying allow expanded ebike access. They all got superseded.

I've made a lot of good connections and built some good relationships with local forests over the years though mountainbikes and snowmobiles, and met a lot of really good USFS employees who I like and respect a lot. None of it means a god damned thing if one of these multimillion dollar organizations files a suit. Much to the chagrin of even the local forest service people who can see what's going on. They get pushed aside so the DC attorneys can 'handle' it. Which is usually a conciliatory settlement.

I think ebikes are dork magnets. But I've also realized that the more mountainbikers (and anyone else regularly excluded from public lands) try and play the high and mighty thinking 'oh but I'm BETTER than someone using a motor', the more fragmented we are as targets. Because it's always the same people taking aim. Motor or not, if you're not hiking with the memoirs of john muir or frank church in your back pocket, you're a second class user. Relationships or perceptions don't matter after a certain point. It's legal muscle, nothing more.

Personally I can see way more similarities between what I do and riding an ebike than I can between what I do and the professional fun police.



grinch: you forgot your "I live in canada and don't have to deal with any of this legal bullshit, just public perception" disclaimer. S'all good. I got your back.

[grinch]

Ya thats why i started with "different areas have different probldms" but as per usual i got sidetracked Nd rambled on about my personal/local eeb restriction rant. My apologies. You guys have more redtape than id care to wade in on. I even try and maintain a distance from our local club politics. Living in a national park for 25 years will do that.
Oh btw, did you just call them "dork magnets", then the next sentence say riders shouldnt claim to be "better" than other users? Ftr i was a bike dork before i was an eeb dork but id hardly call all the pro eeb riders dorks with the content theyre bring out. Mostly the brits, BK, brendan, Pil etc but the bc riders are there too with the froriders, remi, yohan and then rdog etc. Theyre job is to sell bikes but theyre definitely having fun and digging them. Special mention to Bernard Kerr, sickest fkn style on a bike. That bike doesnt look heavy. Hes definitely used to the weight

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[kidwoo]

Oh btw, did you just call them "dork magnets", then the next sentence say riders shouldnt claim to be "better" than other users?

Oui. I did zat ting.

But I'm pointing out the difference between thinking you're a dork and also believing that you have a right to be a dork. When it comes to fighting the upright citizens brigade in the US we're all allowed a dorky cousin, but we're still family. And fuck the people who think neither of us belong.

[grinch]

Ya 10-4. I was just thinking the other day of a dude i recently reconnected with through fb. Good guy. Hes now big in the eeb scene. I think hes with a shop or owns a shop. Waaay back when there was only a few mtb riders in town , everyone knew everyone atleast by recognizing them with their bike. Our group sort of knew him and a few of his friends but hadnt really rode together. We were all pretty into it but we were a little more dirt bag with limited funds and a lot less work. We were on our hardtails, maybe full rigid then, and he was rolling around on an "offroad" full suspension all pimped out with grafton and or ringle and mag 21 or something. That just blew our minds and we were jealous and probably talked shit amongst ourselves. Almost 30 years later , hes still into the latest and nerding out and having fun. He was a good guy then and still is. Besides i have little room to talk. Im one of the few with one and its fun. Anyway, just a recent experience and we used to think we didnt need or want the fancy gear. Turns out i was wrong. So wrong

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[SkiBall]

I just pulled the trigger on a '19 Haibike SDURO 7.0. Honestly, mainly want it to commute uphill into a headwind to work, but given enough time I will explore further. Really interested to see the handling on a 50# bike.

[babybear]

^you are going to love it. makes going to work fun

[SkiBall]

^you are going to love it. makes going to work fun

Looking forward to it. Rode just my road bike to work and the uphill & headwind about sucked my soul. Coming home is a headwind too (just the ways it works here), but it is downhill mostly so pretty fun.

[grinch]

Good one! I never hear of any problems with those cx's

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[SkiBall]

Seem to get good marks, and last years model on a pretty solid discount brought it into my range to buy. Mainly just have xl’s left which is perfect for me.
Have to sell my Gary Fisher to make room and to appease the wife. So any MTN biking will be with this. I’ll check in with my thoughts when I get a few miles on it.
A lot to spend right now, so thanks for the piece of mind.

[jacob_dbu]

I picked up a Raleigh Lore DS iE for the commutes as well. Basically a mini moped. So excited to give it a spin.

[grinch]

Raleigh and haibike are the same company and very similar bikes. The also own lapierre and ghost but those lines are a little different. I think theyre the accel group(not positive on that or the spelling)
Surprised the haibike and raleigh are marked down as much as they are. Bikes sales have really picked ip after the initial stall at the onset of the virus. Eebs in particular have really been selling. Good solid specs on both those bikes. Theyve mixed and matched some things to get extra performance. No real skrimps on them. Most important is the bosch motors. Saw the numbers of failures from the different motors from one big store and the bosch had very few warrantees compared to the rest. Not even close compared to the others, best warrantee and after that thehre rebuildable. That raleigh with the cx speed should have some get up and go. You cant hack the new bosch's to chip them(a good thing) but ive seen people suggest finding a cx soeed to swap in for extra speed. Youd have to buy a complete bike though so i cant see many, if any, doing that but..... Really only beneficial for commuting as they have the same tourque. Get you around the flats quick though

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[grinch]

I like these, cube 160 hybrid. Nice geo and has the gen 4 cx at a good price. Probably make the fork a 9er 180

[SkiBall]

Raleigh and haibike are the same company and very similar bikes. The also own lapierre and ghost but those lines are a little different. I think theyre the accel group(not positive on that or the spelling)
Surprised the haibike and raleigh are marked down as much as they are. Bikes sales have really picked ip after the initial stall at the onset of the virus. Eebs in particular have really been selling. Good solid specs on both those bikes. Theyve mixed and matched some things to get extra performance. No real skrimps on them. Most important is the bosch motors. Saw the numbers of failures from the different motors from one big store and the bosch had very few warrantees compared to the rest. Not even close compared to the others, best warrantee and after that thehre rebuildable. That raleigh with the cx speed should have some get up and go. You cant hack the new bosch's to chip them(a good thing) but ive seen people suggest finding a cx soeed to swap in for extra speed. Youd have to buy a complete bike though so i cant see many, if any, doing that but..... Really only beneficial for commuting as they have the same tourque. Get you around the flats quick though

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Guessing the discount is due to last year and Mainly XL sizes about all that is left. Could have gotten something cheaper, but I really appreciate reliability. Ordered last night, got shipping conf today for Tuesday delivery. Stoked.

[grinch]

Sick! Ill be checking in for that initial new bike ride report . Itching for the snow to clear here. Soo close. A week should make all the difference.

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[SkiBall]

Will do. Took about 70 minutes to get to work on road bike. Let’s see the diff. Still pretty cold most mornings though, so commute part may wait for that update.

[grinch]

70 minutes !?! Well done!! Miles will pile up doing that.

Nice to get out on some dirt today. 1 hour drive but the trails were 95% dry. Fun exploring

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[grinch]

Pretty cool what an update can do to these systems. In a matter of seconds they can be totally transformed. Open the gates!! I can see a 17kg 150mm travel bike happening from a number of companies or maybe a 16kg 120mm rear travel backcountry ripper. A couple extra batteries in the pack and off you go



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[jacob_dbu]

Took the Raleigh out for a spin today. The geometry is a little strange but it fits well.

The seat sucks, but that’s an easy change. I also want to install a dropper

THIS THING RIPS. I already know I’m going to love it. I’m glad I got the Performance Line Speed vs. CX. 28mph with no warranty voiding chip. Plus I’ll mostly be doing road miles.

Somehow now I have an itch for a motorcycle...


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