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  1. #226
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    Sure e-bikes are coming but the hardware is the easy part

    is there even an e-bike lobby, any e- mtn bike associations, e-mtn bike trail days?

    or are they insisting their motors are not really motors and therefore they should be allowed to ride on the coat tails of the non motorized bikers?

    who do not seem to want anything to do with the e-bikers?

    If the e-bikers want trails to ride besides the existing motor accessible areas they are gona have to do more than buy the hardware


    localy we use a rokon to carry all the stuff for trail work on the established motorized trails , why fuck around eh?
    Lee Lau - xxx-er is the laziest Asian canuck I know

  2. #227
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    Quote Originally Posted by TahoeJ View Post
    Grinch's point of being able to "shuttle" without a car is a good one.
    Except he's trying to make some semantic point about the morality of using a motor to get to the top. It's a terrible argument. Shuttleable descents are a small subset of the total pool of non-motorized trails, and ebikes don't change the percentage of descents accessible by vehicle shuttles. Whereas, 100% of trails are accessible to ebikes.

    Quote Originally Posted by kidwoo View Post
    Whatcom county JUST LIKE THE REST OF THE COUNTRY suffers from something going on the forest service called the travel management rule that went into place in 2005. It required the FS to inventory all roads and trails on their district, and then produce a map like the one above to designate routes. Of course they have no money or time to do that so they all did a partial job of inventorying about 15% of what's out there. So now since there are tons of trails and roads that exist yet weren't inventoried and don't appear on the map, they're technically illegal to ride.
    Sidebar, you can get historical USGS topos that show all kinds of trails and features that aren't on the new maps directly though USGS and third-party vendors like EDR.

  3. #228
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  4. #229
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    Quote Originally Posted by californiagrown View Post
    I was not there back in those days
    Shoulda stopped there.
    Remind me. We'll send him a red cap and a Speedo.

  5. #230
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dantheman View Post
    Except he's trying to make some semantic point about the morality of using a motor to get to the top. It's a terrible argument. Shuttleable descents are a small subset of the total pool of non-motorized trails, and ebikes don't change the percentage of descents accessible by vehicle shuttles. Whereas, 100% of trails are accessible to ebikes.
    ebikes and shuttles aren't mutually exclusive either. I've been passed by ebikes several times going up Puke Hill after passing the shuttle itself on the way to BCC.

    Which brings up a question for the ebikers: I know the motor is pedal assist but the riders are often wearing (cotton) street clothes even when it's 100℉ in the valley and in the 80s at altitude so how much does the pedal part come into play?

    Sure, the amount of assist can be set but these guys are hauling ass on a steep hill at 10K and it looks like the pedaling action acts more like a throttle than anything else.

  6. #231
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    I can think of quite a few shuttleable trail loops that would be much better with an E-bike. Plus maybe some new ones to be built. Would also cut down on wear and tear of the shuttle road for some.

    Really, I think that the cost would be a pretty good prohibitive factor and you wouldn't see a massive traffic increase in riders. Fat, rich, uncoordinated people aren't going to magically gain balance skills needed for DH mtbing or climbing for that matter. You still aren't going to see grannies roosting up your local singletrack climb.

  7. #232
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dantheman View Post
    Except he's trying to make some semantic point about the morality of using a motor to get to the top. It's a terrible argument. Shuttleable descents are a small subset of the total pool of non-motorized trails, and ebikes don't change the percentage of descents accessible by vehicle shuttles. Whereas, 100% of trails are accessible to ebikes.
    I'm just saying from my own personal motivations. I'm not a big fan of shuttling... but having a bike that could make two 3-4k loops in a day more realistic (without being totally worn out) sounds appealing. I could see myself getting one eventually - no interest for the time being however.

  8. #233
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    Quote Originally Posted by MultiVerse View Post
    Which brings up a question for the ebikers: I know the motor is pedal assist but the riders are often wearing (cotton) street clothes even when it's 100℉ in the valley and in the 80s at altitude so how much does the pedal part come into play?
    Depends on the rider and the trails. I got pretty tired muscling a RM PowerPlay around on the flats and downhills on a tech bit of singletrack but wasn't breaking a sweat on the gravel club where I could spin very lightly and yell STRAVA to warn people to get out of MAH WAY GODAMNNIT. Shimano motor. 50lb bike so i expected it to be a handful on the DH

    On a tech climb with tight switchbacks I had to work pretty hard to get the ebike up to the minimum speed for the motor to engage (Bosch motor). Interesting also not a problem roosting corners on the uphill

    On the Specialized Levo it was moderate effort on the paved section then pretty light effort on typical boring flow downhills

    Anyhow the pedal part helps but the extent to which it helps depends

  9. #234
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    All the arguments about ebikes being the same as shuttles, or ebikes making things too easy, or how much the bikes cost, are entirely missing the point.

    If people want to ride ebikes, that's fine. Have fun.

    But they're not mountain bikes because mountain bikes don't have motors. Glossing over that fact and treating them like they're mountain bikes is going to get trails closed for everyone, and it's going to make it harder to open new trails. Maybe there needs to be a new user classification between mountain bikes and dirt bikes, but that's for the ebikers to sort out with the land managers. Until then, ebikes are motorized vehicles, and they need to stick to moto legal trail.

    As a side note: fuck specialized and the way they've pushed their ebike lineup. They're a significant part of the problem.

    Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

  10. #235
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    Quote Originally Posted by kidwoo View Post
    Maybe in dh races and only then in the late 90s.

    there was no "mtb trail building" back then really. Which is why most of those trails are way better than mtb specific stuff. There was no concern of being able to pedal up it. Now there is. And it screws up the descending part. Trails doubling back on themselves 50 times on a 2% grade instead of just going from point A to B.


    I've actually been riding a ton of trails around Tahoe lately that are mostly not really on mountainbike radar. I enjoy them a lot more. I've got a good running list if you want. 100% of them were built before mountainbikes were a thing.
    Sounds like we're on the same page. I'm not at all a fan of what TAMBA has done for mountain biking in North Tahoe, though they have made it easier to climb to some of the better descents. But yeah, all of my favorite rides around here are the older trails or the ones built for bikes without any oversight. Would love to see your list if you don't mind PMing me, curious how much is out there that I don't know about.
    And since the topic is ebikes, I'll join the general consensus that I'm all in favor as long as they stay off non-motorized trails. Luckily around Tahoe there is very little user conflict on multi use trails, but there seems to be a decresing respect for the trails in general - motos on trails, mountain bikers that don't know how (or care to) stay on singletrack, people making trail "improvements" instead of working on their skills or just getting off their bikes for a few seconds. And fuck the argument that ebikes will "gow the sport" - I'm ok with lazy fucks sitting at home on the couch, more people on the trails doesn't really improve my experience.
    “I really lack the words to compliment myself today.” - Alberto Tomba

  11. #236
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    Quote Originally Posted by MultiVerse View Post
    ebikes and shuttles aren't mutually exclusive either. I've been passed by ebikes several times going up Puke Hill after passing the shuttle itself on the way to BCC.
    Ebike for a shuttled crest lap is pretty pathetic, and very illegal. If I ever see one up there they're getting an earful.

  12. #237
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    Quote Originally Posted by mmmm...pow! View Post
    Sounds like we're on the same page. I'm not at all a fan of what TAMBA has done for mountain biking in North Tahoe, though they have made it easier to climb to some of the better descents. But yeah, all of my favorite rides around here are the older trails or the ones built for bikes without any oversight. Would love to see your list if you don't mind PMing me, curious how much is out there that I don't know about.
    Mixed feelings on TAMBA. Some of the fixes here and there have been good in terms of drainage in the Spring, but many of the new trails are boring and sidewalk wide. The Ocelot re-route above Tahoe City, for example. It's kinda fun but kinda boring too. The old one was a mess but you could go blasting through the rocks and mini drops going mach looney and it was pretty fun. Whereas Fast Eddie's is clearly *not* a TAMBA trail and provides nice variety. Same with some of the new stuff up near Tahoe Donner.

  13. #238
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dantheman View Post
    Ebike for a shuttled crest lap is pretty pathetic, and very illegal. If I ever see one up there they're getting an earful.
    I didn't know ebikes were illegal on the Salt Lake (Crest) side. There's a sign just before dropping into Park City so I thought SLC was legal, PC not. #GoodtoKnow

  14. #239
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    Ebikes are illegal on all non-motorized USFS (and BLM) trails.

  15. #240
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeeLau View Post
    Depends on the rider and the trails. I got pretty tired muscling a RM PowerPlay around on the flats and downhills on a tech bit of singletrack but wasn't breaking a sweat on the gravel club where I could spin very lightly and yell STRAVA to warn people to get out of MAH WAY GODAMNNIT. Shimano motor. 50lb bike so i expected it to be a handful on the DH

    On a tech climb with tight switchbacks I had to work pretty hard to get the ebike up to the minimum speed for the motor to engage (Bosch motor). Interesting also not a problem roosting corners on the uphill

    On the Specialized Levo it was moderate effort on the paved section then pretty light effort on typical boring flow downhills

    Anyhow the pedal part helps but the extent to which it helps depends
    From a hardware perspective

    somebody posted about all the shit that in his experiance broke/wore out faster on E-mtnbikes, I think because the bike weighs more and the components were really made for a lighter bike and they were being ridden further faster ect

    instead of doing one trail in a day the rider can easily do 3 or 5 so more wear faster

    any ideas about this
    Lee Lau - xxx-er is the laziest Asian canuck I know

  16. #241
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    Ever notice how urban people who only spend small amounts of time in the forest get so jacked up about any little thing “destroying” the forest....but people who live and work in the forest manage not to get all bunched up about tire tracks or “erosion”. There’s a fire in the woods....oh god it’s DESTROYED! There’s a rut in the trail, oh god it’s been DESTROYED!!! Somebody shot target practice, it’s DESTROYED

    Meanwhile that’s literally every day, every hour, stuff in a small town farming or logging area. CONSTANT DESTRUCTION....call your congressman, keep everyone who’s not into artisan coffee and craft beer and “silent sports” 10 miles away at the closest. END THE DESTRUCTION

    I

  17. #242
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    I know this isn't the argument but druther have dirt & ebikes than horses on the trails but I dont want to open another can of worms drift on this thread But really I think they are clearly motorized and so can't be allowed on non motorized trails.

    It's pretty cut and dry here in Teton County- They are allowed where motorized is allowed and not where not.
    There was some concern about them not being allowed on the pathways and that would have been a travesty since our pathway system here is incredible and we have terrible summer congestion during peak traffic hours.
    So far it's been ok and I haven't heard much about mis-usage on trails but then again we also have a good # of motorized access trails too (andrew sits on the local pathways board so he gets to hear all the dirt/ complaints)
    It was also called out around here a yr or two ago that some ecyclists were not aware that it was considered motorized. I'm sure that is an easy response to say but also I bet there is some level of ignorance to the distinction since, well, we know people are dumb

    I do agree w/ TahoeJ et al that it's a dream come true for bike hating advocates and we need to be careful to not put our trail access at jeopardy bc then all cyclists lose out.

    Quote Originally Posted by ill-advised strategy View Post
    I want a super powerful e trike for winter, and I want to do mad donuts with it.

    I'm not kidding. I do actually want this.
    who doesn't want to do that?
    skid luxury

  18. #243
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    Quote Originally Posted by b-bear View Post
    I know this isn't the argument but druther have dirt & ebikes than horses on the trails but I dont want to open another can of worms drift on this thread But really I think they are clearly motorized and so can't be allowed on non motorized trails.

    ....
    Yeah, well...

    Quote Originally Posted by GoldMember View Post
    ....Now my really big bitch are the horses. If you take your dog hiking and it shits on the trail, the expectation is for you to bag it and haul it out. Horse riders? Not so much. I am constantly dodging horse shit in the middle of the trail and am not always successful.... Damn horses should be required to pick up their own shit.

  19. #244
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    Electric Bike Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by TahoeJ View Post
    Mixed feelings on TAMBA. Some of the fixes here and there have been good in terms of drainage in the Spring, but many of the new trails are boring and sidewalk wide. The Ocelot re-route above Tahoe City, for example. It's kinda fun but kinda boring too. The old one was a mess but you could go blasting through the rocks and mini drops going mach looney and it was pretty fun. Whereas Fast Eddie's is clearly *not* a TAMBA trail and provides nice variety. Same with some of the new stuff up near Tahoe Donner.
    I much preferred the old ocelot - I'm not sure it even had a name prior, but whatever. It was a good, but short wake up climb and fun to blast down. I find the new winding version boring as fuck both directions and I'm a wuss on downhills so that's sayin something. I'm tempted to clear out the old straight shot just so the option is there. I'm mixed on the elevator shaft re route since I never rode it much, but stick to putting in new trails and minor repair rather than messing w existing trials. Haven't seen the new Stanford rock route yet

  20. #245
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    Quote Originally Posted by b-bear View Post
    I know this isn't the argument but druther have dirt & ebikes than horses on the trails but I dont want to open another can of worms drift on this thread
    Hey eastcoaster - those cowboys been ridin' horsees for years in this valley. It was all youz easterners that have phucked up our way of life and driven the cost of everything thru the roof. Take your skis, mtn bikes and shove 'em

    That may have been said in '89...and before that and after. And shit, there were only about 10 women in all of Jackson at that point.

    Horses will always have the right of way.

  21. #246
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    Electric Bike Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Dantheman View Post
    Except he's trying to make some semantic point about the morality of using a motor to get to the top. It's a terrible argument. Shuttleable descents are a small subset of the total pool of non-motorized trails, and ebikes don't change the percentage of descents accessible by vehicle shuttles. Whereas, 100% of trails are accessible to ebikes.
    .
    To be clear, I said I usually pedal one lap on the dh shuttle trails . I figure I can ebike pedal almost(not quite) 3 laps with the same workout or I could shuttle 6
    I also said I was theorizing how they could be used with no conflict. I also said they wouldn’t be good to use for our out and back alpine rides , because of conflict, and I didn’t think they would be good on our 2 way xc trails
    I repeated all of that^^ atleast twice so I figure you’ll cherry pick something I’ve posted to fit your bias. So carry on.

  22. #247
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    Quote Originally Posted by jackstraw View Post
    Hey eastcoaster - those cowboys been ridin' horsees for years in this valley. It was all youz easterners that have phucked up our way of life and driven the cost of everything thru the roof. Take your skis, mtn bikes and shove 'em

    That may have been said in '89...and before that and after. And shit, there were only about 10 women in all of Jackson at that point.

    Horses will always have the right of way.
    I can hear the cowboy voice you are using for this too lol
    yea they will always have the right of way but their presence is less and less on the trails every yr, which is nice. for better or for worse there are just less of the old ranching type here than there was.
    My best friend is a horse owner and so I get that's it's another way to enjoy neature and have fun, so I don't get bent out of shape about it. just druther'ing
    skid luxury

  23. #248
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeeLau View Post
    I got pretty tired muscling a RM PowerPlay around on the flats and downhills on a tech bit of singletrack but wasn't breaking a sweat on the gravel club where I could spin very lightly and yell STRAVA to warn people to get out of MAH WAY GODAMNNIT. Shimano motor. 50lb bike so i expected it to be a handful on the DH
    The Rocky isn't a Shimano motor, it's an all in-house design. It uses a motor from their eVox bikes in their "mousetrap" design.

  24. #249
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    Quote Originally Posted by jackstraw View Post
    Hey eastcoaster - those cowboys been ridin' horsees for years in this valley. It was all youz easterners that have phucked up our way of life and driven the cost of everything thru the roof. Take your skis, mtn bikes and shove 'em

    That may have been said in '89...and before that and after. And shit, there were only about 10 women in all of Jackson at that point.

    Horses will always have the right of way.
    Forum Cross Pollinator, gratuitously strident

  25. #250
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    The trails on galby that are bike only would be pretty shitty to hike and nearly impassable to a horse...

    The walkers and trail runners still complain and not many show up at trail days.

    There is one rad lady that rides galby on her horse fairly often and she is a great ambassador for horse folks and she comes to work days.

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