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07-19-2018, 09:06 AM #51
Yup. But torsional stiffness isn't something that is only needed to make wide skis "rip" hard snow. If you have a skinny ski that is a torsional noodle, it will twist and tend to slide out turns on the groomers too. Torsional stiffness or softness isn't limited by, or specifically associated with, ski width.
The way Betelgeuse refers to sidecut is also vague and confusing. There is no specific sidecut that "rips" hard snow. You can lay rails on almost any raduis non-reverse sidecut.
Keeping the ski in contact with the surface is important (not necessarily contact legth because there are plenty of skis that have short contact patches that rail on hard snow), so a damp, stiff ski through whatever contact patches there is will likely "rip" hard snow better. I could lay GS and super G tracks on very hardpack and icy Rockies conditions on my 189 Hellbents back in the day,-- wide 122mm, short contact, full rocker, floppy tips and tails, but very stiff/solid directly underfoot.
So again, more speed, wider stance, more lateral loading/movement, more angulation from the hips.Last edited by reckless toboggan; 07-19-2018 at 09:39 AM.
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07-19-2018, 09:22 AM #52
4frnt YLEs ripped firmer at 118 under foot iirc
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07-19-2018, 02:49 PM #53one-track mind
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07-19-2018, 03:37 PM #54Banned
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Ripping is ripping lol. Skiing fast and hard, and everything is going correctly. Idk how to explain it further.
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07-19-2018, 03:42 PM #55Banned
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Ya, but I can do all that on a ski that sucks on firm, and that ski will still suck on firm.
I’m wondering about design aspects that guarantee a wide ski does well on firm. Not what to do with my body.
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07-19-2018, 03:52 PM #56
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07-19-2018, 03:55 PM #57Dad core
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My movement goliaths rip on the firm, 191, 30m radius no rocker or taper and reasonably stiff, you just have to get some speed and drive the edge in. My supergoats are fine one the firm but don't drive superg arcs the same way. Chose the right ski for the conditions.
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07-19-2018, 03:57 PM #58Banned
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So for manufacturers, coming up with a new fat ski that does well on firm is just luck through prototyping enough (or the right) designs? Not being condescending, really asking. Is it the “total is more than the sum of it’s parts” sort of thing?
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07-19-2018, 04:03 PM #59
I've heard that the color red helps.
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07-19-2018, 04:49 PM #60Banned
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Attachment 241866
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07-19-2018, 09:11 PM #61
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07-19-2018, 09:29 PM #62Banned
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I’m wondering what makes Praxis Rx so good on firm snow.
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07-20-2018, 09:37 AM #63
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07-20-2018, 09:39 AM #64
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07-20-2018, 09:41 AM #65
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07-20-2018, 09:56 AM #66Banned
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07-20-2018, 09:57 AM #67
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07-20-2018, 09:59 AM #68Banned
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I dont think you know at this point.
Sent from my iPhone using TGR ForumsLast edited by Betelgeuse; 07-20-2018 at 10:53 AM.
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07-20-2018, 10:01 AM #69
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07-20-2018, 10:03 AM #70Banned
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I love red
I dont think my question was nearly as broad as “what makes a good sports car”.. I specified wide skis, even named certain models, and how they perform on any sort of firm snow.
It was more like asking what makes the new M3 or Z06 handle well.
Sent from my iPhone using TGR ForumsLast edited by Betelgeuse; 07-20-2018 at 11:08 AM.
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07-20-2018, 12:39 PM #71one-track mind
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I see potential for a good discussion, but I don't know the difference between "ripping" vs "not ripping", and "firm snow" can mean smooth groomers or coral reef or the deepest suncups etc. And "sucks on firm" can mean anything, so I might guess you mean "results in unexpected out-of-balance moments I don't like" or whatever???
I mean, I can say a wide plastic saucer "rips" 60-degree slopes of smooth "firm snow", and it doesn't do anything unexpected so it doesn't "suck".
For skis, I say just mount laterally rigid bindings on any wide ski and then go rip every snow condition you can handle.
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"My biggest goal in life has always been to pursue passion and to make dreams a reality. I love my daughter, but if I had to quit my passions for her, then I would be setting the wrong example for her, and I would not be myself anymore. " -Shane
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07-20-2018, 01:42 PM #72Banned
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When I say firm snow, I mean everything. Groomers, ice patches, coral reef, whatever. Bibbys and Rx rip those condtions so well.
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07-21-2018, 11:24 PM #73one-track mind
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It's definitely more complicated than that. Feel free to try to connect the dots and draw conclusions about ski design attributes if you are willing to analyze the combo of your own observations plus some of my raw observations on firm refrozen nastiness at this old thread: Nine ski reviews in nasty snow
It seems like each ski design attribute can be set to a wide range of values without any single attribute ever being "absolutely wrong" or "absolutely right"---you just gotta make sure the final blend of all the attributes' values work together to deliver the performance you want.
In order for me to safely "rip" at high speeds on firm surfaces, especially on surface shapes with disturbances that are within the nasty range of wavelengths (like chattery coral reef, refrozen tracks, etc.), I prefer a ski that inspires confidence to "shut 'er down" or "scrub speed" as smoothly as possible at any time without getting unexpectedly knocked off balance too much rotationally or translationally. What attributes help that? Heavy weight reduces deflection (both rotational and translational). An aftward mount position reduces rotational deflection. It really, really helps if the faraway part of the tip and tail don't catch much (so an effective blend of rocker &/or not too much camber &/or higher radius sidecut &/or tapered tip &/or flex), so that all impact sensations are more predictable to the pilot (or even confined to only underfoot on a R/R design). It helps control to have high lateral transmission underfoot (rigidity in the ski material, in the binding, in the boot, plus sharp ski edges)...and if the nasty surface-of-the-day ends up dictating to your body with unbearably nasty vibrations, more than your body is dictating to the snow, then you can mitigate that by conceding victory to the nasty snow and just loosen your top boot buckle a notch or two to reduce transmission. Also, while skiing bases flat, it helps if the tip absorbs disturbances without transmitting the nasty range of frequencies into your boot (so a nice blend of flex & absorbing rocker shape & absorbing rocker zone length). Etc.
I feel like I got surprisingly kickass lateral transmission out of a Volkl Three (135mm underfoot). One of my boot buckles popped right off of a Salomon Course 130 boot. Bye bye.
.- TRADE your heavy PROTESTS for my lightweight version at this thread
"My biggest goal in life has always been to pursue passion and to make dreams a reality. I love my daughter, but if I had to quit my passions for her, then I would be setting the wrong example for her, and I would not be myself anymore. " -Shane
"I'm gonna go SO OFF that NO ONE's ever gonna see what I'm gonna do!" -Saucerboy
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07-21-2018, 11:28 PM #74
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07-21-2018, 11:29 PM #75
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