Numerical Ski Rankings/Comparison

**pfluffenmeister** · 07-17-2018, 10:53 AM

^^^ Couldn't agree more regarding the L138 Rocker 2.

Stiff as an I-Beam.
Charges hard and is surprisingly easy to throw sideways.
I only have four days on mine (4' in 4 days @ tiny Monarch).
The L138s were mounted with Plums and I was driving them with Maestrale RS's, and yet, I charged harder than on my alpine pow set-up.

I really want to get on them with an alpine binder/boot.

**Vitamin I** · 07-17-2018, 10:56 AM

Originally Posted by auvgeek

...the 202 L138 R2...I'd like some other/bigger mags to get some time on them at some point, maybe I'll make it to a BBI or something in the next few years...I think the max they go is 315...

Uhhhh, yes please [/understatement of the year]. Sign me up with my 314BSL.

1.) Do you still have 2 pairs of those 202 Lotus 138 R2's?
2.) Does it mean I'm a stalker if my browser bookmarks still include your 2014 thread at https://www.tetongravity.com/forums/...-Dukes-FKS-etc ?

.

**auvgeek** · 07-17-2018, 11:58 AM

Originally Posted by Vitamin I

Do you still have 2 pairs of those 202 Lotus 138 R2's?

Kind of. That thread was started when Marshall said there was no way the sidewall crack was structural and I should just epoxy it. But it kept growing and seemed structural so I sent him some photos and he changed his mind. He emailed me a few years ago and found a NOS single 202 from the same generation and offered it to me for free. But then he got busy (or maybe I pissed him off by being less than stoked about DPS new touring line), and it never got shipped to me.

Originally Posted by Vitamin I

2.) Does it mean I'm a stalker if my browser bookmarks still include your 2014 thread at https://www.tetongravity.com/forums/...-Dukes-FKS-etc ?

I'm flattered. It's funny that neither of those skis sold. I ended up giving the 191 Fats to my younger brother for Christmas and he still LOVES them.

**Banh Mi** · 07-17-2018, 04:19 PM

Those DPS are so sweet. That rocker profile is amazing. I want.

Auvgeek, how should I word my proposal to On3p about that style of big mtn freestyle twin skis we want? How many people do you think we need to be on board to get a fully new mold like that, 10, 20 or 30? How should I go about recruiting? I dont want to say anything like “I think the kartel series should be blah blah for 2020..”, I dont want to piss Iggy off in any way. He’s probably super busy with so much other stuff. Idk how to go about this.. and we already got the Supergoat last season. Idk if On3p even wants to make another champagne room TGR ski.

On a positive note, I do think we could get 20 followers for this. They would be daily driver skis, unlike the Supergoats.

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**Self Jupiter** · 07-17-2018, 05:03 PM

I’ll grow my feet out and try those baddies, I’m on the EC

**Banh Mi** · 07-17-2018, 05:25 PM

How do you go about making a wide ski rip firm? Is there a formula for sidecut or something, or is it simply effective edge?

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**iggyskier** · 07-17-2018, 05:27 PM

Originally Posted by Betelgeuse

I think the kartel series should be

Or just email me. Or be a bit patient. All will work at this point.

**auvgeek** · 07-17-2018, 05:30 PM

Originally Posted by Betelgeuse

Those DPS are so sweet. That rocker profile is amazing. I want.

Auvgeek, how should I word my proposal to On3p about that style of big mtn freestyle twin skis we want? How many people do you think we need to be on board to get a fully new mold like that, 10, 20 or 30? How should I go about recruiting? I dont want to say anything like “I think the kartel series should be blah blah for 2020..”, I dont want to piss Iggy off in any way. He’s probably super busy with so much other stuff. Idk how to go about this.. and we already got the Supergoat last season. Idk if On3p even wants to make another champagne room TGR ski.

On a positive note, I do think we could get 20 followers for this. They would daily driver skis, unlike the Supergoats.

No idea. I don't want to annoy him -- he's always been super patient and responsive despite being super busy. I know he's aware of my/our interest so I've been trying to lay low and not bug him about it for the time being. This design would be a lot more work for ON3P than the SG, because it will require prototyping and design iterations, which was done for the SG by/for their FWT athlete. Also, I definitely don't think of this as a replacement for the Kartel series at all so I certainly wouldn't say or imply that.

I do think it would be a super, super sick ski, though, for anyone who likes charging and also progressive mount points and twins.

**Banh Mi** · 07-17-2018, 05:46 PM

Originally Posted by iggyskier

Or just email me. Or be a bit patient. All will work at this point.

Lolz. I will be patient, I’m accidentally starting to wind myself up since it’s summer. I’ll be riding On3p skis no matter what.

Originally Posted by auvgeek

No idea. I don't want to annoy him -- he's been super patient and responsive. I know he's aware of my/our interest and I'm also not sure how to corral people for this "potential" ski so I've been trying to lay low about it. Plus, this design would be a lot more work for ON3P than the SG, because it will require prototyping and design iterations, which was done for the SG by/for their FWT athlete. Also, I definitely don't think of this as a replacement for the Kartel series at all so I certainly wouldn't say or imply that.

I do think it would be a super, super sick ski, though, for anyone who likes charging and also progressive mount points and twins.

Wasnt the OG wrenegade a bit more like this? Maybe 2009 or 2010ish?

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**waxoff** · 07-17-2018, 06:13 PM

Originally Posted by Betelgeuse

How do you go about making a wide ski rip firm?

Now that's the (unfortunately discontinued, or not developed into mark III) Black Crows Sevun II, that's a fat ski that not only rips firm but carves like a champ! Stiffish flex, kinda lotsa sidecut for a fatty (~21m), torsional rigidity and no pow float enhancing soft tips. However, it comes with some limitations regarding slasheability in the soft stuff, but rip the firm it will.

**auvgeek** · 07-17-2018, 06:24 PM

Originally Posted by Betelgeuse

Wasnt the OG wrenegade a bit more like this? Maybe 2009 or 2010ish?

I have a pair of those -- I think (and Iggy confirmed) that it would be weird to mount them too far forward. A heavy core, 4+ or 5- flex 187 MVP is probably the closest, except no bamboo and probably too much rocker (on paper -- haven't skied).

**Banh Mi** · 07-17-2018, 06:40 PM

How do you create a wide twin ski with the hard snow performance of the bibby, and the soft snow performance of the K116? That would be the ultimate ski for me, but it seems impossible. Designs that enhance hard snow performance, affect soft snow performance, and vice versa. The only thing that breaks this mold is the Katana and Devastator, seemingly. Full rocker, when done right, can be very good.

The Gunsmokes and Patrons were pretty good, but I had some issues with both of those too. 193 Patrons were too floppy in the tips, and too planky underfoot. The flex didnt feel uniform or blended together well. 186 Gunsmokes were very versatile but not as chargey as 190 bibbys. I have minimal time on 193 gunsmokes, but from what I recall, I thought they were great chargers, that were still easy to ski, but not as playful as I wanted from a ski like that. Nor as chargey as true chargers like katanas, which are pretty darn forgiving themselves. Maybe the 193 Gunsmokes would also work better for me now that I’m heavier, but I still think the 190 Wildcats will be more playful and charger enough for this type of ski.

The problem with 187 MVP is that is measures more like 185. And ultimately a little too short. The 189 Rx is about as short as I want to go from praxis, especially with more tail rocker. I almost got a 193 MVP this year, but chickened out from the Blister gear review and some off reviews. I can demo them here in Tahoe though, so I will be doing that this year. Bamboo is my favorite, and On3p skis are heavier, which I prefer, but praxis maple and ash cores are pretty sweet too. Two high quality hardwoods.

I got a pair of 190 Wildcats this year. Going to put them up against Rx and Katanas in the ring for versatility. Each have a different feel, but are similar in versatility.

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**BC.** · 07-17-2018, 09:42 PM

Originally Posted by Betelgeuse

Those DPS are so sweet. That rocker profile is amazing. I want.

Auvgeek, how should I word my proposal to On3p about that style of big mtn freestyle twin skis we want? How many people do you think we need to be on board to get a fully new mold like that, 10, 20 or 30? How should I go about recruiting? I dont want to say anything like “I think the kartel series should be blah blah for 2020..”, I dont want to piss Iggy off in any way. He’s probably super busy with so much other stuff. Idk how to go about this.. and we already got the Supergoat last season. Idk if On3p even wants to make another champagne room TGR ski.

On a positive note, I do think we could get 20 followers for this. They would be daily driver skis, unlike the Supergoats.

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As an EC guy who takes a few trips out west each year.....I’d be in.

Betel’s intel on skis is great. We are about same size (6’2 205) and seem to like wide skis that rip and can be playful. The way he describes the skis is exactly how I feel about them too. I’m just too dumb to be able to explain it all.......

This is a great thread.

**Banh Mi** · 07-17-2018, 09:49 PM

For anyone interested, ski monster has some brand new 2018 Wren 98s in a 189,184,179, for like $440 with code CYBERMONDAY. I keep getting tempted, so somebody please buy the 189s.

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**auvgeek** · 07-17-2018, 09:54 PM

Originally Posted by Betelgeuse

How do you create a wide twin ski with the hard snow performance of the bibby, and the soft snow performance of the K116? That would be the ultimate ski for me, but it seems impossible. Designs that enhance hard snow performance, affect soft snow performance, and vice versa.

praxis rx

lol

But yeah, obviously hard snow and soft snow are in direct contradiction. Sometimes a ski excels in one and isn't terrible at the others. Sometimes a ski is mediocre at both but people still love it because it's predictable.

Honestly, the ski I want ON3P to make isn't better than the Bibby in pow -- I have the BG for that. What I want is essentially a K108 with a high-20s radius and some other tweaks (less dramatic taper, smoother flex profile, etc). If others are on board with that concept and ON3P wants to make it, that'd be awesome. If not, I'll just ski my extra-stiff Jeffreys until they die and then maybe get an MVP or something.

The only thing that breaks this mold is the Katana and Devastator, seemingly. Full rocker, when done right, can be very good.

Continuous rocker works fine on hard snow if you slash or slarve your turns. It's hard to get a full rocker ski to react well to driving the tips. IME, IMHO.

The problem with 187 MVP is that is measures more like 185. And ultimately a little too short. The 189 Rx is about as short as I want to go from praxis, especially with more tail rocker.

Yeah...but you have like 40# on me.

**Banh Mi** · 07-17-2018, 10:18 PM

Originally Posted by auvgeek

praxis rx

lol

Honestly, the ski I want ON3P to make isn't better than the Bibby in pow -- I have the BG for that. What I want is essentially a K108 with a high-20s radius and some other tweaks (less dramatic taper, smoother flex profile, etc). If others are on board with that concept and ON3P wants to make it, that'd be awesome. If not, I'll just ski my extra-stiff Jeffreys until they die and then maybe get an MVP or something.

Ya I got a little greedy asking for so much pow performance. I’m really looking for a ski that does well on firm. I’ll take whatever I can get after that, at this point.

I agree with what your asking of the K108. I really liked the K108, just wanted a 28m radius on it. For a wide all mtn park ski, the 2018 K108 was the best I’ve ever tried though. And thats the point. However, I dont ski park much. I was also 215lbs on the 186. Should have been on 191 to get a better feel. It could have just been my fat ass on the wrong size. Also, the 2019 191 with the new blended sidecut could be much better for me. I will try and demo.

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**Self Jupiter** · 07-18-2018, 05:59 AM

You can drive the tips on 194 Devs- I mounted them -1 if that makes any difference.. I think you can because there is just so much ski. They actually carve really well on a soft groomer- I can lay decent arcs with them.

**Banh Mi** · 07-18-2018, 06:37 AM

191 Katanas can be driven as well. I do have some minor issues with full rocker skis though.

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**Doremite** · 07-18-2018, 08:26 AM

Originally Posted by Betelgeuse

For anyone interested, ski monster has some brand new 2018 Wren 98s in a 189,184,179, for like $440 with code CYBERMONDAY. I keep getting tempted, so somebody please buy the 189s.

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This is a great deal on a great ski. Awesome ec dd on everything but fully hard court or firm bumps. But why ski those conditions anyway?

I love mine so much I just jumped on a deal for 108s for softer days where I want a bit more girth.

**Vitamin I** · 07-18-2018, 05:19 PM

Originally Posted by Betelgeuse

How do you go about making a wide ski rip firm? Is there a formula for sidecut or something, or is it simply effective edge?

My method is: Just mount a binding with high lateral rigidity. 916's work for me.

.

**reckless toboggan** · 07-18-2018, 08:09 PM

Originally Posted by Betelgeuse

How do you go about making a wide ski rip firm? Is there a formula for sidecut or something, or is it simply effective edge?

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Go fast. Wide stance. Lots of lateral movement. High angulation from the hips. Counter rotate.

So pretty much the same as on regular skis.

**Banh Mi** · 07-19-2018, 01:39 AM

Thats not what I mean. Im talking about how some wide skis rip firm, while some arent as good. Is it all sidecut and effective edge? Or what else?

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**Doremite** · 07-19-2018, 05:32 AM

Originally Posted by Betelgeuse

Thats not what I mean. Im talking about how some wide skis rip firm, while some arent as good. Is it all sidecut and effective edge? Or what else?

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Interested too. My only experience on wide boards/firm snow.

OG Liberty Double Helix - Hang on and leave 30 yards to scub speed (try your hardest not to run anyone over)

P3 L120 Spoons - Smooth arcing turns back to the lift with ease and grace. Scrub speed on a dime.

**Self Jupiter** · 07-19-2018, 05:37 AM

Originally Posted by Betelgeuse

For anyone interested, ski monster has some brand new 2018 Wren 98s in a 189,184,179, for like $440 with code CYBERMONDAY. I keep getting tempted, so somebody please buy the 189s.

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Good deal. The Ski Monster guys are cool.

**jdadour** · 07-19-2018, 08:31 AM

Originally Posted by Betelgeuse

Thats not what I mean. Im talking about how some wide skis rip firm, while some arent as good. Is it all sidecut and effective edge? Or what else?

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Torsional stiffness has a lot to do with it too. The old Supernatural 115s RIPPED groomers. I could bang out medium radius GS turns on firm with ease.

The Jaguar Sharks on the otherhand are more towards a medium stiffness, and did NOT perform as well on firm. You could tell they we "twisting" too much from the lack of torsional stiffness. But its supposed a powder ski, so makes sense.