Soccer team lost in Flooded coves

[MultiVerse]

So now, one has to wonder, was he collaborating with some divers over the objections of others, or was this a fevered dream of Elon's imagination?

Why do you have to wonder about the collaboration? Musk shared his July 8 email correspondence with British diver Richard Stanton on Twitter and on July 10 Richard Stanton said the cave confines were too small for Musk tube.

It's not one set of divers word against another, it's Musk's claims against the people he said he was collaborating closely with.

Accurate. I'd just add that might have proved useful had the situation developed differently.

It was a side project that even if it had fit wouldn't have provided any real advantages, anyway. In other words, even if it had been viable in terms of size, which it wasn't, there were a number of other issues that would have invalidated it as a viable contingency.

[summit]

It's not one set of divers word against another

There is a huge difference in tone. At this point I'm leaning towards that being a product of decorum (I'm no longer giving Musk benefit of the doubt after he showed his ass like that), although it could have been a case of one diver never wanted the contingency plan developed while another did (though the result was insufficient).

It was a side project that even if it had fit wouldn't have provided any real advantages, anyway.

If it were viable it would have offered some very significant advantages. I've already enumerated them.

[MultiVerse]

If it were viable it would have offered some very significant advantages. I've already enumerated them.

Really, what are they? Because there are also very significant disadvantages evident in the L.A. pool video Musk posted on Twitter that outweigh any benefits, whatever those might be.

[mcski]

If the tube was viable, what possible disadvantages would outweigh the benefits? You make no sense

[summit]

Really, what are they? Because there are also very significant disadvantages evident in the L.A. pool video Musk posted on Twitter that outweigh any benefits, whatever those might be.

Obviously there are disadvantages. But you asked what are the advantages of a sealed vessel for a weakened, potentially sick child with no swimming/diving training vs putting a full face mask and diving in cold zero-viz confined space overhead with a current?

1ATM all the time:

• No problems with equalization/disequalibrium induced panic/nausea
• No pulmonary/ME barotrauma
• Less air needed

Sealed vessel:

• Dry and easy insulation reduces hypothermia (and thus oxygen consumption)
• Continuous flow regulator instead of demand reg means that an increased respiratory rate due to anxiety/panic won't drain your cylinder faster
• Set the neutral buoyancy and forget it (no adjustment needed with depth)
• Some physical protection from smashing into cave features

No diving:

• No teaching swimming
• No FFM-leak panic
• No need to teach FFM clearing
• No mask getting knocked off by current contact with obstacles

That's what I could think of off the top of my head.

Obvious disadvantages are ungainly (slower=more air needed), heavier (more air consumption by rescuers or possibly extra rescuers needed), and reduced maneuverability (apparently to the point of impracticality in this case). It could leak or systems could fail, but so too could regs and masks on an untrained diver.

[MultiVerse]

If the tube was viable, what possible disadvantages would outweigh the benefits? You make no sense

What are the benefits over the existing alternative? Musk claims that he will make a video of the, "mini-sub/pod going all the way to Cave 5 no problemo" but even if, hypothetically speaking, that happens that still doesn't make the tube shown on Twitter viable for this particular rescue operation.

[iceman]

Whether it would have worked and whether it was a good idea basically comes down to whether it would have fit. Either it would have or it wouldn't have. People can spout opinions all day but there is an actual definitive answer that ca be determined and no doubt eventually will be, either by Musk or someone else. Until that happens this is all just noise.

[mcski]

What are the benefits over the existing alternative? Musk claims that he will make a video of the, "mini-sub/pod going all the way to Cave 5 no problemo" but even if, hypothetically speaking, that happens that still doesn't make the tube shown on Twitter viable for this particular rescue operation.

That's not what you said or what I was asking you said even if the tube was viable the disadvantages would outweigh the advantages. If it was viable, answer the question.

You make no sense or don't know what viable means. Maybe both

[MultiVerse]

Obviously there are disadvantages. But you asked what are the advantages of a sealed vessel for a weakened, potentially sick child with no swimming/diving training vs putting a full face mask and diving in cold zero-viz confined space overhead with a current?

1ATM all the time:

No problems with equalization/disequalibrium induced panic/nausea
No pulmonary/ME barotrauma
Less air needed



Sealed vessel:

Dry and easy insulation reduces hypothermia (and thus oxygen consumption)
Continuous flow regulator instead of demand reg means that an increased respiratory rate due to anxiety/panic won't drain your cylinder faster
Set the neutral buoyancy and forget it (no adjustment needed with depth)
Some physical protection from smashing into cave features



No diving:

No teaching swimming
No FFM-leak panic
No need to teach FFM clearing
No mask getting knocked off by current contact with obstacles



That's what I could think of off the top of my head.

Obvious disadvantages are ungainly (slower=more air needed), heavier (more air consumption by rescuers or possibly extra rescuers needed), and reduced maneuverability (apparently to the point of impracticality in this case). It could leak or systems could fail, but so too could regs and masks on an untrained diver.

Most of the advantages you've listed were offered by the chosen solution.

For example, they didn't need to teach swimming, the inflatable stretchers offered both physical protection and protection against the mask getting knocked off. Due to size constraints there wasn't really any insulation protecting against hypothermia with Musk's tube.

1ATM all the time might be an advantage at depth but you are giving up the ability to monitor the kids so what seems like an advantage becomes a disadvantage. We know there were doctors and anesthesiologists monitoring the kids along the way but with Musk's tube the kids would have been bolted inside with no quick access. In the event of a system failure or a medical emergency, the kids would have been trapped inside.

And as you've pointed out any advantage of less air needed is wiped out because the tube is so cumbersome. Neutral buoyancy also requires weights strapped to the side which makes the tube bulkier, heavier, and more difficult to maneuver.

Almost every advantage you've listed comes at great cost with little benefit over the alternative.

What's more, in addition to being ungainly the tube required one diver in front and one following diver to operate. We now know even though that was the plan with the inflatable stretchers too, it didn't work. The shoulder-width passages and elbow turns meant that there was no benefit with two divers. Instead one diver bear hugged and then pushed and shoved the kids through tight sections.

[MultiVerse]

That's not what you said or what I was asking you said even if the tube was viable the disadvantages would outweigh the advantages. If it was viable, answer the question.

You make no sense or don't know what viable means. Maybe both

See the answer to your question above. The bottom line is: the map is not the territory.

Even if the tube had been carefully designed and had fit, it still wouldn't have worked because it required two divers to operate. The rescuers believed going into the rescue that two divers per kid would work. However, once they actually began the rescue only one diver per kid worked in tight sections.

In essence, the cost of bolting the kids in an an inflexible tube offered negligible benefit, and carried with it all the disadvantages, compared with wrapping them like a tortilla in a flexible plastic stretcher.

[summit]

Multivers I started on a point by point rebuttal, but stopped. Instead I'll ask: are you being intentionally obtuse and disagreeable because it is your personality? Or are you caught up on Musk==bad therefor anything Musk proposes is bad paradigm? Or are you simply playing the devils advocate?

I will say that in addition to your obvious lack of participation in rescues or large incidents management, it is rather apparent you are not familiar with basic medical considerations, and you are probably not a diver, or perhaps you took your OW years ago and have a dozen times and assume your engineering background will let you guestimate variables in a way you simply can't (or your are guestimating wrong because you don't understand details). I have a clue about what I cannot know or don't know well enough to make solid guesses on. You are sure of yourself that it is impossible to have an honest debate with you about a bunch of unknowns and hypotheticals.

I'm going biking.

[MultiVerse]

Multivers I started on a point by point rebuttal, but stopped. I'm going to bike instead. Instead I'll ask: are you being intentionally obtuse and disagreeable because it is your personality? Or are you caught up on Musk bad therefor anything Musk proposes is bad paradigm? Or are you simply playing the devils advocate?

I will say that in addition to your obvious lack of participation in rescues or large incidents management, it is rather apparent you are not familiar with basic medical considerations, and you are probably not a diver, or perhaps you took your OW years ago and have a dozen times and assume your engineering background will let you guestimate variables in a way you simply can't (or your are guestimating wrong because you don't understand details). I do large incidents, rescues, and have nearly a decade of dive rescue... enough to see where I can't know things. You are sure enough of yourself that it is impossible to have an honest debate with you about a bunch of unknowns and hypotheticals.

I'm going biking.

lol, you also have a history of either repeating false claims or making false claims, making the intentionally obtuse barb along with all rest just another example of your behavior.

In any event, the issues I've raised are not guestimates. They are documented when it comes to conditions in the cave and you can watch the videos of Musk's tube on Twitter. They aren't unknowns and hypotheticals. They are based on reports from people who participated in the rescue.

All you've got are appeals to authority. Earlier in this thread you repeatedly appealed to Musk's authority and now you are appealing to your own.

[wyeaster]

summit will never spit out that second ball o musk

[wyeaster]

so does musk wrap it up murder-suicide? suicide? autoerotic asphyxiation?

[GhostofSeasonsPast]

Obviously there are disadvantages. But you asked what are the advantages of a sealed vessel for a weakened, potentially sick child with no swimming/diving training vs putting a full face mask and diving in cold zero-viz confined space overhead with a current?

1ATM all the time:

• No problems with equalization/disequalibrium induced panic/nausea
• No pulmonary/ME barotrauma
• Less air needed

Sealed vessel:

• Dry and easy insulation reduces hypothermia (and thus oxygen consumption)
• Continuous flow regulator instead of demand reg means that an increased respiratory rate due to anxiety/panic won't drain your cylinder faster
• Set the neutral buoyancy and forget it (no adjustment needed with depth)
• Some physical protection from smashing into cave features

No diving:

• No teaching swimming
• No FFM-leak panic
• No need to teach FFM clearing
• No mask getting knocked off by current contact with obstacles

That's what I could think of off the top of my head.

Obvious disadvantages are ungainly (slower=more air needed), heavier (more air consumption by rescuers or possibly extra rescuers needed), and reduced maneuverability (apparently to the point of impracticality in this case). It could leak or systems could fail, but so too could regs and masks on an untrained diver.

Bingo.

[wyeaster]

Bingo.

ghast getting friendly with the kiss of death.

[Kinnikinnick]

That’s some talented semi-backtracking, smokescreening, expert self haloing, preaching down and general bsing to avoid simply admitting that he was wrong.




Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

[skifishbum]

A bit of tragedy, the cave diving doctor from Australia who went in and stayed in the chamber with the boys (he, a Thai doc, and a nurse were taking care of them as I understand it) and was the last out, his father died while he was in the cave and he was informed as he came out of the cave. Talk about a buzzkill of the worst kind.

It looks like they set up a bunch of tyroleans and used a sked in some of the treacherous areas where there was the headroom to do it.

Apparently the pumps failed just after the rescue was completed and the Thai SEALs clearing equipment barely made it out!

Thai SEALs also posted this cartoon representing the rescue operation:

Attachment 241151

White Elephant : The governor Narongsak
Wild Boars : The children and coach
White horse : All heroes who've involved in the mission. You are the knight in shining armour riding the white horse to help us!
Seal : of course ... Thai navyseal Hooyah!
Frog : all world-class divers
Lion : rescuers from England
Kangaroo : rescuers from Australia
Panda : rescuers from China
Crane : rescuers from Japan (Sorry for the flood disaster. Thai people wish things will get better soon)
Moose : rescuers from Sweden
Tiger : rescuers from Myanma
Brown Elephant : rescuers from Loas
Dog : K9 unit (cute!)
Martin : climbers from Libong Thailandddd
์Naga (Dragon) : water pumping team (can I include Drilling team ทีมบาดาล/เจาะถ้ำ too?)
Eagle : rescuers from USA
Iron man : thank you elon musk
Birds : media
Crow : just some bad comments/ people/ obstacle




They used a beta-blocker to help with panic and keep heartrates lower. It is not really sedating (actually sedation would be extremely dangerous in a dive).

needs a hudge butthurt hemroid twatting in a yellow submarine front and mother fuckin center
or at least on the back

[wyeaster]

it flows from nuclear expertise. everything does. like fukushima flows into the ocean.

[PNWbrit]

I like how obscure threads bring out the experts on submersible rescue theory.

It's like the world cup does with soccer "experts"

[wyeaster]

but all those people who sang it's coming home before the semis BELIEVED it!

[summit]

lol, you also have a history of either repeating false claims or making false claims

You said it, must be true! In your mind, I have no doubt you believe what you are saying. Your major failing in this entire discussion is that if you come to a conclusion, you think that is tantamout to truth because you declare it. Saw plenty of that in engineering school. It's sad to see from someone who clearly has intelligence.

In any event, the issues I've raised are not guestimates. They are documented

Oh cool! Thanks for the documentation!

I totally missed the quantified air consumption comparisons for the hypothetical use of a rescue vessel, definitive resource requirements, and a risk analysis showing that potential increased staging requirements would have somehow outweighed the increased safety in various rescue contingencies. It was a great read!

Oh wait...

Maybe you could show your work?

All you've got are appeals to authority. Earlier in this thread you repeatedly appealed to Musk's authority and now you are appealing to your own.

I appeal to my experience to know that the situation is not clear.

You appeal to your own intellect.

Your lack of experience is readily apparent. Only someone with so little relevant wisdom and so much ego could be so certain.

[summit]

needs a hudge butthurt hemroid twatting in a yellow submarine front and mother fuckin center
or at least on the back

Properly drawn with steam coming out of his ears or maybe a spilled bottle of pills!

Seriously, what a jackass. I'm sorry I didn't doubt his word more up front.

[summit]

Thai boys rescued from cave remember the Thai SEAL who died during the rescue operation.


Writing messages of commemoration

Attachment 241580

Article says they'll be released from hospital soon still on antibiotics. They've received vaccinations too. It is interesting reading about diseases specific to caves r/t bat droppings. I didn't realize the global extent of Histoplasmosis

Thai SEAL commander to boys: be a force for good.

[MultiVerse]

You said it, must be true! In your mind, I have no doubt you believe what you are saying. Your major failing in this entire discussion is that if you come to a conclusion, you think that is tantamout to truth because you declare it. Saw plenty of that in engineering school. It's sad to see from someone who clearly has intelligence.


Oh cool! Thanks for the documentation!

I totally missed the quantified air consumption comparisons for the hypothetical use of a rescue vessel, definitive resource requirements, and a risk analysis showing that potential increased staging requirements would have somehow outweighed the increased safety in various rescue contingencies. It was a great read!

Oh wait...

Maybe you could show your work?



I appeal to my experience to know that the situation is not clear.

You appeal to your own intellect.

Your lack of experience is readily apparent. Only someone with so little relevant wisdom and so much ego could be so certain.

Major failing? You've been wrong about... pretty much everything. I'll be happy to show my work but given what we know haven't I been more or less proven right about my objections to Musk's tube?

I get that you don't want to take my word for it but the experts who were on scene have basically said the same thing. Even the editorial that you posted on the previous page made similar points to the ones I made in this thread.

In stark contrast, you've declared over and over again that Musk's tube would work. You said, "it was designed based on the input of the UK rescue divers in the Thailand cave and that according to them, his device WOULD in fact be able to make all the corners and pinch points" so how is it possible that you are now saying "I appeal to my experience to know that the situation is not clear" ?????

Only someone with so little relevant cave rescue experience and so much ego could have been so certain about the viability of Musk's tube.