Soccer team lost in Flooded coves

[summit]

get that you don't want to take my word for it but the experts who were on scene have basically said the same thing. Even the editorial that you posted on the previous page made similar points to the ones I made in this thread.

Actually none of those discussed the advantages/disadvantages list I gave or that you made declarations about, nor is there discussion about contingencies in an emergent and dynamic rescue.

You've declared over and over again that Musk's tube would work. You said, "it was designed based on the input of the UK rescue divers in the Thailand cave and that according to them, his device WOULD in fact be able to make all the corners and pinch points" so how is it possible that you are now saying "I appeal to my experience to know that the situation is not clear" ?????

We are only discussing hypothetical now because we are agreeing that it wouldn't fit based on the rescuers statements. But BEFORE we had their input, what I said, actually:

do you know the length of the no-mount and the shape of the cavern on either side? Is it a 1ft pinch with no direction changes on either side similar to the no-mount in first cave diving video I posted? Or is it a tight point in a tortuous curve similar to the diagram I posted of Nutty Putty?

That determines whether it is passable or not for the rescue vessel

I explicitly said it might fit it might not. Before we had the rescuers assessment, I stated my assumption: that I gave Musk the benefit of the doubt when he said he was working with people in the cave. Turns out he didn't, or his people didn't, or they didn't listen, or whatever... rescue vessel doesn't fit say the rescuers. So, my assumption was wrong.

You always presumed to know beyond a shadow of a doubt that it was not passable based on very little evidence. You couldn't know. It happens to be that your guess was right.

Arrogant people can guess right. Don't let it go to your head. Unlike you, I can admit what I am wrong about, and have.

You've been wrong about... pretty much everything.

Now that's an amusing position. Luckily you weren't stuck in that cave. Your head wouldn't fit through the tight spots!

[PNWbrit]

I'm pretty sure you guys need to spread your expertise to a zoo security thread... we're all done on the whole cove thing.

[NW_SKIER]

#harambematters

[MultiVerse]

I explicitly said it might fit it might not. But I stated my assumption: that I gave Musk the benefit of the doubt when he said he was working with people in the cave. Turns out he didn't. So, my assumption was wrong.

That quote of yours doesn't explicitly say it might not fit. Instead, you assumed Musk's engineers thought of the "the most obvious fucking complication." You also wrote that the reason the tube wasn't practical was, "because the water levels stayed low enough and kids proved strong enough. Luckily it wasn't needed"

None of that was true.

“Again, you are here claiming that Musk's engineers didn't think of the most obvious fucking complication that there could possibly be. Musk established contact with experts on the site and established that there was a potential need. That is what he posted the correspondence from.

Musk then sent his people to the site and had his engineers working on the design in the US. Those engineers and experts communicated with each other and the divers. They did the design and testing.

But you are assuming that the most basic of design considerations were not taken into account until someone gives you absolute proof otherwise of basic engineering competence.”

“The reason the equipment wasn't practical because the the water levels stayed low enough and kids proved strong enough. But if they hadn't, there would have been a need. That was the concern of the cave divers and why they asked for the options in case the rain overwhelmed the subs or if the weakest of the kids couldn't handle the dive.

Luckily it wasn't needed.”

You just presumed to know that it was not passable based on no evidence at all. You couldn't know. It happens to be that your guess was right.

Here’s what I mean by documented:

We know the cave is only shoulder width in some sections. We also know the narrow sections have twists and turns. Divers were quoted as saying diving through and on into chamber three was "like the s-bend on your toilet." Divers had to take their tanks off to fit through the narrow sections.

The Australians, who usually perform black water search operations, were unable to go beyond chamber three as they were held back by their equipment, which would get stuck in the narrower spaces.

They used an inflatable stretcher and wrapped the kids in it. It weighs almost nothing. It floats and can be easily maneuvered by experienced divers. It provides the theoretical advantages of the metal Musk tube without the glaringly obvious downsides.

They planned to use two rescuers per kid in the confined sections but once the rescue started only one rescuer per kid worked.

In the Musk video the person is bolted inside. The procedure to open it is time consuming even with multiple people working on it. They also used a spare air cylinder which has the risk of the person inside letting go of the mouthpiece and possibly not able to access it due to being shoved into a tiny tube. Yet, you and Musk claimed the tube was ready for primetime.

[abraham]

Can we get a coving sub forum?

That should be a Coving Sub sub forum

[PNWbrit]

a visit to Disneyland

Enough to make anyone feel suicidal.

[summit]

That quote of yours doesn't explicitly say it might not fit. Instead, you assumed Musk's engineers thought of the "the most obvious fucking complication." You also wrote that the reason the tube wasn't practical was, "because the water levels stayed low enough and kids proved strong enough."

You aren't a fan of context, are you? At least not when you are trying to twist words to score points.

At that point in the discussion we only had "impractical" from the governor, NOT "won't it" statements from the rescue divers. Unlike you, I can only comment on information available, right or wrong.

And I absolutely said it might not fit. I basically said "Condition A, obviously fits Condition B obviously doesn't fit." Taking Musk at his word, it was pretty unthinkable that someone would miss condition B within parameters. However, if Musk was not being accurate... which was what it turned out to be... it doesn't fit so says the diver. But you think you have room to gloat over guessing right over something unknowable? Hope your arm doesn't get tired patting yourself on the back.

They used an inflatable stretcher and wrapped the kids in it.

You keep saying inflatable stretcher. Where are you getting this???

While those exist, I don't think you know what you are talking about (again... shocker). Now if they had inflating stretchers inflated during the dive they'd need tons of weights to counter the inflated stretcher to make it neutral and maneuverable and it would be a buoyancy nightmare with depth changes. A floating stretcher would only make sense for the open air sections with water where they weren't using a tyrolian. Maybe they used flotation for the Sked then.

I saw a Sked which is a foldable litter (really just a thick piece of plastic, rolls up and weighs about 10kg). It does NOT really bend once the person is taco'd inside. It does conform to their length somewhat by tensioning and curling. It has many snag and catch points and offers only limited impact protection on one side. It doesn't really prevent mask flooding. It doesn't help with equalization or prevent barotrauma. It does make plenty of sense for moving someone, particularly through the non-diving portions as it slides well over mud and rock while being rigid enough to be suspended. I and plenty of other people on this forum use Skeds regularly (just not in caves). Here is footage of resucers using the Sked in use in the Thai cave:



There's much more I could say (like your implication that they could monitor or even do something about the kid in the stretcher other than making sure there are bubbles coming out of the reg, which is all they said they did underwater), but this is just more glaring evidence of you think you know, but you don't. You THINK you do, so you go read a piece of journalism written by someone completely unfamiliar with equipment and utterly fail to translate back into practical understanding because you don't have a basic understanding.

[MultiVerse]

You aren't a fan of context, are you? At least not when you are trying to twist words to score points.

At that point in the discussion we only had "impractical" from the governor, not "won't it" statements from teh rescue divers. Unlike you, I can only comment on information available, right or wrong.

And I absolutely said it might not fit. I cave "Condition A, obviously fits Condition B obviously doesn't fit." Taking Musk at his word, it was pretty unthinkable that soemone would miss condition B. However, if Musk was not being accurate... which was what it turned out to be. But you think you have room to gloat over guessing right over something unknowable? Hope your arm doesn't get tired patting yourself on the back.


You keep saying inflatable stretcher. Where are you getting this???

While those exist, I don't think you know what you are talking about. Now if they had inflating stretchers inflated during the dive they'd need tons of weights to counter the inflated stretcher to make it neutral and maneuverable. A floating stretcher would only make sense for the open air sections with water where they weren't using a tyrolian.

I saw a Sked which is a foldable litter (really just a thick piece of plastic, rolls up and weighs about 10kg). It does NOT really bend once the person is taco'd inside. It does conform to their length somewhat by tensioning and curling. It has many snag and catch points and offers only limited impact protection on one side. It doesn't really prevent mask flooding. It doesn't help with equalization or prevent barotrauma. It does make plenty of sense for moving someone through the non-diving portions.

There's much more I could say (like your implication that they could monitor or even do something about the kid in the stretcher other than making sure there are bubbles coming out of the reg, which is all they said they did underwater), but this is just more glaring evidence of you think you know, but you don't know how to read a piece of journalism written by someone completely unfamiliar with equipment and translate back into practical understanding because you don't have basic understandings.

1) The reality is you repeatedly, over-and-over again, jumped to conclusions in the absence of evidence. The point I kept making was, based on the evidence, Musk's claims appear to be exaggerated.

2) Nobody is twisting your words. You jumped to a bunch of specious conclusions and you were wrong because you ignored the evidence.

3) I can see how you and others might see my side of this discussion as gloating. But I've tried to stick to the facts and I kept quiet after the rescue when others were pilling on. It was only after you posted Musk's "Pedo" smear that I responded to your litany of absurdities.

3) The United States Air Force provided the inflatable stretchers. And they don't "need tons of weight" if they aren't fully inflated. It makes sense if you know the Air Force's history with search and rescue. In the video you posted, inside the sked, you can see the plastic like material the kids are wrapped up in.

4) I never claimed they monitored the kids underwater. Just the opposite. Reports say they monitored the kids in the air pockets between sections that required dives. With the tube, the kids would have been bolted inside requiring a time consuming procedure to the do the same.

[PNWbrit]

There's much more I could say

Would cash donations stop you?

[summit]

1) The reality is you repeatedly, over-and-over again jumped to conclusions in the absence of evidence.

2) Nobody is twisting your words. You jumped to a bunch of specious conclusions and you were wrong because you ignored the evidence.

3) The United States Air Force provided the inflatable stretchers. It makes sense if you know the Air Force's history with search and rescue.

4) I never claimed they monitor the kids underwater. The monitored the kids in air pockets between sections that required dives. With the tube, the kids would have been bolted inside requiring a time consuming procedure to the do the same.

1) The reality is you repeatedly, over-and-over again jumped to conclusions in the absence of evidence.

2) You love to twist words, examples are numerous. You jump to specious conclusions without evidence... examples abound, plenty identified in the last post. Just one more off the top of my head you mentioning the spare air being because it is hard to "reach the mouthpiece" in Musks thing is pure conjecture based on your total lack of understanding of how the thing works. That one surprised me since you are this "rapid prototyping" engineer. Just make up some more stuff, declare it to be true, and hang your hat on it.

3) Not underwater

4) You keep hanging your hat on shit you dream up as being a big deal. If such a device was necessary, the 35 seconds it took them to open the rescue vessel is not so big a deal. Ever tried to get someone out of an AGA while they are strapped into a Sked? Probably takes that long at least. It takes far longer though to get the AGA resecured and sealed, even when you are dealing with an adult and not a kid where straps had to be maxed, and that is before having to strap someone back into a Sked. But you haven't done either task on its own. You watched a youtube about the Musk device and declared it in your expert opinion to be too long compared your preferred alternative that you don't even understand.

[MultiVerse]

4) You keep hanging your hat on shit you dream up as being a big deal. If such a device was necessary, the 35 seconds it took them to open the rescue vessel is not so big a deal. Ever tried to get someone out of an AGA while they are strapped into a Sked? Probably takes that long at least. It takes far longer though to get the AGA resecured and sealed, even when you are dealing with an adult and not a kid where straps had to be maxed, and that is before having to strap someone back into a Sked. But you haven't done either task on its own. You watched a youtube about the Musk device and declared it in your expert opinion to be too long compared your preferred alternative that you don't even understand.

The point is not so much any one of the problems are a "big deal," it's that the list of problems is so long.

Here's the problem with your narrative: "my" preferred alternative is the one that worked while your preferred alternative, the one you said would have worked but "Luckily it wasn't needed,” turned out to be something of a scam.

Once again you are appealing to your authority about the problems with the solution that actually worked in defense of an unworkable prototype.

[summit]

And yet "my" preferred alternative is the one that worked while your preferred alternative the one you said would have worked but "Luckily it wasn't needed” turned out to be something of a scam.

There you go twisting words... again... It was NEVER my preferred alternative. "I hope it is not needed" and "I'm glad it wasn't needed" was a sentiment I repeatedly expressed long before the divers said it wouldn't fit.

You love attempting to appear technically right about things you posses know technical knowledge or experience in... but when you are repeatedly shown wrong, you are happy to gloat over being randomly right. Good work!

Hey where is this stuff about the inflatable stretcher in the rescue you keep referencing? Google only comes back to... this thread... did you make that up too? Misinterpret a newspaper article... again?

[John_B]

Jesus. You guys are giving Elon Musk a run for his money on pointless arguements.

[mcski]

Thai boys rescued from cave remember the Thai SEAL who died during the rescue operation.



Attachment 241580

Article says they'll be released from hospital soon still on antibiotics. They've received vaccinations too.
.[/URL]

I can't believe that after all those kids have been through, now they are being infected them with autism

[PNWbrit]

I can't believe that after all those kids have been through, now they are being infected them with autism

Thai authorities should have brought in DBS to work out better vaccine schedule,

Vibes.

[MultiVerse]

There you go twisting words... again... It was NEVER my preferred alternative. "I hope it is not needed" and "I'm glad it wasn't needed" was a sentiment I repeatedly expressed long before the divers said it wouldn't fit.

You love attempting to appear technically right about things you posses know technical knowledge or experience in... but when you are repeatedly shown wrong, you are happy to gloat over being randomly right. Good work!

Hey where is this stuff about the inflatable stretcher in the rescue you keep referencing? Google only comes back to... this thread... did you make that up too? Misinterpret a newspaper article... again?

You also wrote:

What testing can Musk do other than pressure test it and do some pool drills? He proved that. It holds pressure, supplies air, etc. What else could be tested? This is an emergency design effort. Some risk is inherent. The "test" comes with running it on the way to the trapped kids. Did it fit? Did it stay dry?

It's nuts for you to say "he proved that" it works after a couple of laps in an L.A. pool especially when the so called "proof" relied on a spare air cylinder and reg. While we both expressed the hope that the tube wasn't needed, the difference is my positions was it is an unworkable prototype whereas you claimed it was a viable option, one that was ready to try out.

There are numerous articles, including the New York Times article PNWbrit posted, that describe plastic cocoons, floating stretchers, cocoon-like stretchers, the boys were swaddled in a flexible plastic stretcher, etc.

[summit]

It's nuts to say "he proved that" it works after a couple of laps in an L.A. pool.

They proved exactly what I said he proved: "holds pressure, supplies air, etc." They didn't prove what I asked: "Did it fit?" Nope... didn't fit. What is your point again?

There are numerous articles, including the New York Times article PNWbrit posted, that describe plastic cocoons, floating stretchers, cocoon-like stretchers, the boys were swaddled in a flexible plastic stretcher, etc.

Plastic cocoons are Skeds. They are NOT floating stretchers. I explained the difference. I have explained why inflatable stretchers are the opposite of useful during a dive, but potentially useful during non-diving flooded sections when not suspending the Sked. Perhaps they put the Sked on a floating stretcher during some of those sections? I don't know, it would make sense.

Anyhow, please do go on about how your total ignorance is intellectually equal to basic levels knowledge and experience which you dismiss as "appeal to authority."

[MultiVerse]

Anyhow, please do go on about how your total ignorance is intellectually equal to basic levels knowledge and experience which you dismiss as "appeal to authority."

You keep claiming total ignorance on my part but what have I been wrong about? You keep claiming that I've been "randomly right" but then how have you been so (randomly?) wrong in spite of all your self described expertise?

As far as the plastic cocoons versus skeds thing, you are missing the point entirely. The plastic cocoons provided nearly all the hypothetical benefits of Musk's tube without the long list of drawbacks.

[skifishbum]

Would cash donations stop you?

2 drops
for a "NOT an expert"
bro sure expends a lot of energies wastin time pretending to be one on the intertubez

[summit]

You keep claiming total ignorance on my part but what have I been wrong about? You keep claiming that I've been "randomly right" but then how have you been so randomly wrong in spite of all your self described expertise?

I've identified a many points where you have demonstrated drastically incorrect conclusions and total lack of understanding practical points in just the past few posts.

So far, I've been wrong about this: assuming that Musk was being accurate in his statements and therefor that the tube would fit. He wasn't and it wouldn't.

You, however, claimed to know with great certainty that the tube wouldn't fit without any real evidence. It later came to light that the divers said this was in fact the case. That is called being randomly right.

As far as the plastic cocoons versus skeds thing, you are missing the point entirely. The plastic cocoons provided nearly all the hypothetical benefits of Musk's tube without the long list of drawbacks.

No, it doesn't, see previous posts.

[MultiVerse]

And yet Musk's tube didn't fit and the plastic cocoons worked. I'm like Galileo facing inquisition at this point. E pur si muove.

So far, I've been wrong about this: assuming that Musk was being accurate in his statements and therefor that the tube would fit. He wasn't and it wouldn't.

You were also wrong about so many other things. It's laughable at this point to claim otherwise.


The New York Times article Summit linked to below has already been posted. Earlier in this same thread Summit posted a video that had already been posted. It's a bit silly for someone claiming everybody else is ignorant when he's always late to the party.

[summit]

Good NYT article on how the rescue worked: I Can't Believe It Worked

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/12/w...cue-seals.html

(It does mention they put the Sked on an inflatable stretcher to float across one section of flooded cave)

[summit]

And yet Musk's tube didn't fit and the plastic cocoons worked. I'm like Galileo facing inquisition at this point.

Galileo published a scientific treatise based on extensive observations in a subject he was an expert about, and was hung out to dry for refusing to recant the truth in favor of dogma.

You confidently guessed when confidence wasn't warranted, happened to be right, and were wrong about many details on topics you know nothing about.

Nice one.

You were also wrong about so many other things. It's laughable at this point to claim otherwise.

You keep saying so, but that doesn't make it so. That is what is laughable.

[PNWbrit]

Galileo published a scientific treatise based on extensive observations in a subject he was an expert about, and was hung out to dry.

[summit]

I didn't expect that!