Title 9 is dead

[Mustonen]

The goal is to be the fastest runner, not the runner who improves the most.

Oh sure. But also to compete and be the best you can be and accomplish things. And like learn teamwork and all that shit everybody trumpets on about.

Somebody can still be the fastest. And a Class C champion can still brag about it. Same reason the D8 teams don’t play the D1 teams in the championship.

I see plenty of “Division 4 Football Champs, 1987” signs when I drive into random small towns. Those kids are still proud and they should be and you’re a douche if you go tell them the Division 2 team you were on in 1987 would have TROUNCED those guys.

It’s not like you can’t do it and have it be meaningful. We just don’t do it that way right now and maybe we should. OR we could stop worrying about your kid being second to some trans kid.

But telling them to fuck off because you don’t want to include them in their peer group doesn’t feel like the right thing to do. I’m a little shocked that so many seem to feel that way. Really? Between Bethany getting a gold medal and some kid being able to participate in sports, we’re picking the gold medal? Fuck that and fuck those who are stuck there.

[The AD]

Oh sure. But also to compete and be the best you can be and accomplish things. And like learn teamwork and all that shit everybody trumpets on about.

Somebody can still be the fastest. And a Class C champion can still brag about it. Same reason the D8 teams don’t play the D1 teams in the championship.

I see plenty of “Division 4 Football Champs, 1987” signs when I drive into random small towns. Those kids are still proud and they should be and you’re a douche if you go tell them the Division 2 team you were on in 1987 would have TROUNCED those guys.

That's a bit different, though. Those divisions are determined by school enrollment, not by ability.

And I definitely don't think the trans thing needs to be considered until at least high school.

But telling them to fuck off because you don’t want to include them in their peer group doesn’t feel like the right thing to do. I’m a little shocked that so many seem to feel that way. Really? Between Bethany getting a gold medal and some kid being able to participate in sports, we’re picking the gold medal? Fuck that and fuck those who are stuck there.

There's another option and that's for them to continue to compete as a male. I know it's not ideal, but if they want to continue to compete I'm not sure why that's not a viable option. You can't make everyone 100% happy. There's a lot more precedence of girls competing in boys events than the other way around.

[Mustonen]

That's a bit different, though. Those divisions are determined by school enrollment, not by ability.

And I definitely don't think the trans thing needs to be considered until at least high school.



There's another option and that's for them to continue to compete as a male. I know it's not ideal, but if they want to continue to compete I'm not sure why that's not a viable option. You can't make everyone 100% happy.

I don’t think it’s that different. Ability is very much a factor in whether that d4 team had a hope of hanging with the D1 team. We’re already setting the bar lower for kids in smaller schools.

And you can’t make everybody 100% happy, but you can treat everybody with respect and compassion, and that should be goal 1.

[Flounder]

lord this thread reeks of middle aged dudes dreaming of glory days

[Trackhead]

There is nothing but a slew of contradictory studies that trans athletes actually have a competitive advantage.

The problem with this is that “trans” doesn’t imply estrogen/testosterone use. Trans can mean all biological-sex assigned at birth hormones still remain, unaltered. Trans doesn’t automatically imply gender confirming surgery and/or hormones. So if you have a trans identifying trans woman who isn’t on estrogen, she most certainly has a biological advantage of much higher testosterone levels. Plenty of trans folks opt out of hormone therapy to avoid medical risks associated with their use.

This, of course, assumes we all generally agree testosterone increases hemoglobin, cardiac output, lean muscle mass, and VO2 max which are all factors in sports performance.

[Conundrum]

Anyone personally have a child affected by the situation...either wanted to play and couldn't or a daughter that got beat by a trans athlete? What does your kid think?

Or, just a bunch of white dudes playing what ifs based on things "they read on the internet"?

[Mustonen]

^ sure, but…. What if….?

[east or bust]

I heard the women who lost to Lia Thomas were stoked to see her win.


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[californiagrown]

Or, just a bunch of white dudes playing what ifs based on things "they read on the internet"?

this IS a ski forum. And it IS summertime. Soooooo.

[californiagrown]

I heard the women who lost to Lia Thomas were stoked to see her win.


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Riley gaines literally has made a career within right wing media after tieing with Lia Thomas for off-the-podium at some college meet. I am pretty sure there were a lot more competitors vocal about their displeasure as well... including the whole lockerroom situation with her.

[dunfree]

Anyone personally have a child affected by the situation...either wanted to play and couldn't or a daughter that got beat by a trans athlete? What does your kid think?

Or, just a bunch of white dudes playing what ifs based on things "they read on the internet"?

you’ve just summarized the trans panic

edit: if you wanted you could expand it to: gave you ever interacted with a trans person?

[SumJongGuy]

All we really need is to have NASTAR come in and give all the athletes a handicap score they get to leverage against the best athlete on the field any particular day.

Then they will also send EVERYONE an email saying they "qualified" for NASTAR Nationals.. Totally inclusive!

[skiJ]

All animals are equal, but some are more equal

https://www.ctpost.com/highschool/ar...o-12967306.php

There might be value in going back and reading the article linked in the OP -

gender may be based on "gender identity". so a physiologic male, who "identifies as female" competes in the girls' races.


no. Just no.

[allmountainsnowskating]

At our last downhill skateboarding race, there was a women's class, an open class, and a master's class. There was a super cool equal $1000 prize purse for the winners of women/open. Everyone competes together in an open tournament, and then women/masters have an opportunity to do additional contests.

There were 5 born women and 3 trans women who registered.

The first trans woman has been presenting as a very feminine female for 10 years, competing in our tight little women's group for 5 years, and on hormone therapy for 3 years. She was allowed to compete in women's with no issues and finished in the middle of the pack.

The second trans woman was recently the #2 world champion in men's class and had come out as Trans in the last year. She presents as nonbinary and wore a dress to the race but has an extremely athletic male build and a handlebar mustache. She asked to join women's, but they said no. She would've easily won the women's and almost won the open. I competed against her in open, and she destroyed me in our heat.

The third trans woman came out as trans the day of the race during registration when she asked to race in the women's event. She wore a dress to the event but presents male. They said no, and she got knocked out in the first round of opens. She's typically a very good sport and not really a prankster and is still going back on forth on her gender identity. Some people think that she really is just coming into herself; some people think she was trying to steal the prize money.

How would you have handled it?

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[mud]

Where's Hemingway? He would probably tell us none of this matters because there are only three sports.

[dunfree]

Where's Hemingway? He would probably tell us none of this matters because there are only three sports.

based on the bling aren’t all bullfighters trans?

[californiagrown]

based on the bling aren’t all bullfighters trans?

Nah, almost certainly Q though. I guess you could make the argument for T after an unfortunate goring though.

[The AD]

How would you have handled it?

Not sure, but it definitely highlights that there must be standards in place. You don't want to just arbitrarily decide who's a woman and who is not, but I think we can agree throwing a dress on doesn't make someone a woman, either.

[Trackhead]

but I think we can agree throwing a dress on doesn't make someone a woman, either.

I agree with you, but many don’t.

In the controversial “what is a woman” documentary that is exactly the question asked.

So is there some criteria for being a trans woman? Do I need surgical procedures and estrogen? What if I’m just starting out on estrogen but still quite masculine but very much identify as a woman?

The double standard exists, as does the bias. We’re told time and again gender is non-binary, fluid, ever changing. If that is true, then all the previously mentioned skate boarders should be accepted as they present themselves, no questions asked. And the Canadian bearded power lifter who crushed the record bench by 100lbs should be accepted as well.

Right?

[dunfree]

Not sure, but it definitely highlights that there must be standards in place. You don't want to just arbitrarily decide who's a woman and who is not, but I think we can agree throwing a dress on doesn't make someone a woman, either.

at what point do genital inspections get creepy, weird, and invasive? It’s really easy to toss bromides about standards around

And of course trackhead watched white nationalist bigot mattwalshs derpshit “what is a woman” yeah man, you don’t want vitriol, you just watch hate filled bigots shit themselves. Mask off moment right there

[Trackhead]

at what point do genital inspections get creepy, weird, and invasive? It’s really easy to toss bromides about standards around

Genitals don't determine gender........so this person who clearly has what would typically be associated with male genitalia should be allowed to swim on the women's team despite the junk show. A better shave and a bit of estrogen and "he" might pass as a woman.

[Mustonen]

I think we can agree throwing a dress on doesn't make someone a woman, either.

Almost nobody serious is saying that. That’s not the debate. It’s a headline.

[dunfree]

Genitals don't determine gender........so this person who clearly has what would typically be associated with male genitalia should be allowed to swim on the women's team despite the junk show. A better shave and a bit of estrogen and "he" might pass as a woman.

what does that have to do with trans panic dumbfucks like you pushing genital inspection?

[dunfree]

Almost nobody serious is saying that. That’s not the debate. It’s a headline.

it’s a troll to engage, and it’s engaged old white dudes

[Trackhead]

what does that have to do with trans panic dumbfucks like you pushing genital inspection?

I am promoting no inspection, no inclusion criteria. Only criteria being what the athlete identifies as, regardless of previous or upcoming surgical procedures or transition plans.

What someone plans medically is nobody's business but the athlete.

I'm following Harvard criteria.

This is not a troll, and it happened in the skateboard event per above.