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Thread: Title 9 is dead

  1. #51
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    I can’t wrap my head around this debate. Genetics are genetics.

    Sports don’t give a fuck about your feelings.

    Fuck off, loser.

    White men can’t jump.


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  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasputin View Post
    However, on the topic of transgender athletes, intersex is a bit of a red herring. Again, from Amnesty International:

    Myth 4: Intersex people are transgender.

    Being intersex has nothing to do with being transgender.
    Because sex and gender are not the same thing. I only brought up intersex to show that sex is not binary

  3. #53
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    Title 9 is dead

    Women’s sports were set up to be a handicapped version of men’s sports based on a classification that the world is figuring out it doesn’t know how to define. The whole thing is arbitrary to start. Shocker we can’t all come to a consensus.

    Also, “fair” is an absurd standard in sports. I’m still waiting for the skinny short white guys who can’t jump basketball league. Until then, there’s a greater distinction between a 7 foot dude built like a Greek god vs me playing basketball and a trans athlete vs a cis woman running track.

    I think we just need to take the gender out and tier the sports leagues based on ability/skill. Or some other mechanism of classification that we’ve been socialized to believe is “fair” and makes for compelling entertainment. Or we can just keep fighting about it… I think that’s sort of the point of all this anyways. Be nice to take the hurt and shame out of the discussion though.
    Last edited by Mustonen; 08-21-2023 at 05:59 AM.
    focus.

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by skiJ View Post
    let the 'trans women' compete with other 'trans women' -

    End of story. )
    How exactly do you see this playing out? Some 8th grader in rural Vermont ends up being trans and still wants the experience of being part of a basketball team. It’s already been well documented that there is a small percentage of trans people and an even smaller subset that wants to play sports. Where are they going to find a trans team to play on?

    Every time there are discussions on how to save money in the school budget we hear how sports can’t be cut because of the valuable social skills, learning to be part of a team, and learning to win or lose gracefully. Seems like this is all BS if we can’t find a way to accommodate all kids trying to find their path in life.

  5. #55
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    Gravity is an equal opportunity downer.

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mustonen View Post

    I think we just need to take the gender out and tier the sports leagues based on ability/skill. Or some other mechanism of classification that we’ve been socialized to believe is “fair” and makes for compelling entertainment. Or we can just keep fighting about it… I think that’s sort of the point of all this anyways. Be nice to take the hurt and shame out of the discussion though.
    Except sports aren’t all about entertainment and viewership. Sports are also about the participants, which is the center of the debate (or vitriol if we’re talking TGR).

    Most high school sports have low audience, kids are participating because they enjoy it, not necessarily for an audience except maybe their parents. Powerlifting, CrossFit competitions, and other “sports” with small audiences would also pertain.

    It’s a tough topic, probably no perfect answer. For kids, I think it’s more nuanced. For adults, it’s not (in my opinion).
    Last edited by Trackhead; 08-21-2023 at 06:36 AM.

  7. #57
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    Title 9 is dead

    Quote Originally Posted by Trackhead View Post
    Except sports aren’t all about entertainment and viewership. Sports are also about the participants, which is the center of the debate (or vitriol if we’re talking TGR).

    Most high school sports have low audience, kids are participating because they enjoy it, not necessarily for an audience except maybe their parents. Powerlifting, CrossFit competitions, and other “sports” with small audiences would also pertain.

    It’s a tough topic, probably no perfect answer. For kids, I think it’s more nuanced. For adults, it’s not (in my opinion).
    Agreed, to a point. Which is why I think it’s a classification problem, not a gender problem. We figured it out for golf. Is a track and field handicap that much harder? Schools already divide according to how competitive they are.

    I’m just tossing thoughts into the void. I don’t think I actually have the answers.
    focus.

  8. #58
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    Bummer for kids, both the potentially excluded trans kids and the competing cis-girls for potentially getting crushed by a post pubescent trans-girl. Do college athletic scholarships enter the discussion?

    We have para-Olympics, with few exceptions (Pitorious) who ran in the Olympics as well. Are trans-kids deserving of a “para” class? No. But maybe trans-girls with a pretty undeniable advantage need to keep competing with boys until after high school then life just becomes “not fair”?

  9. #59
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    The number of trans athletes in youth sports is miniscule, the number of trans athletes receiving scholarships is even smaller. Half a million college athletes, about 1/3 of those receive sone sort of scholarship. Do trans scholarships break out of double digit individuals? Probably less than 0.1% of athletes perhaps closer to 0.01%

    If there are 40 female high school soccer players for every scholarship potentially available, it ain’t a trans athlete that’s pipping them

    but the great trans panic is just bigoted bullshit for people that like bullshit

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mustonen View Post
    We figured it out for golf. Is a track and field handicap that much harder?

    I don’t think I actually have the answers.
    Obviously. Some track events are decided by hundreths of a second or an inch.
    "timberridge is terminally vapid" -- a fortune cookie in Yueyang

  11. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timberridge View Post
    Obviously. Some track events are decided by hundreths of a second or an inch.
    That seemed unnecessarily dickish.

    If the issue is that trans athletes are winning by hundredths of a second or an inch I’m not sure we have the problem this is being made out to be.
    focus.

  12. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by dunfree View Post
    The number of trans athletes in youth sports is miniscule, the number of trans athletes receiving scholarships is even smaller. Half a million college athletes, about 1/3 of those receive sone sort of scholarship. Do trans scholarships break out of double digit individuals? Probably less than 0.1% of athletes perhaps closer to 0.01%

    If there are 40 female high school soccer players for every scholarship potentially available, it ain’t a trans athlete that’s pipping them

    but the great trans panic is just bigoted bullshit for people that like bullshit
    Bigoted bullshit or just a topic of conversation?

  13. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Markeyz View Post
    Gravity is an equal opportunity downer.
    RIP Shane

  14. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mustonen View Post
    That seemed unnecessarily dickish.

    If the issue is that trans athletes are winning by hundredths of a second or an inch I’m not sure we have the problem this is being made out to be.
    It was, because it's a stupid comment. How do you handicap a sprint event that's measured in hundreths of a second?
    "timberridge is terminally vapid" -- a fortune cookie in Yueyang

  15. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flounder View Post
    How exactly do you see this playing out? Some 8th grader in rural Vermont ends up being trans and still wants the experience of being part of a basketball team. It’s already been well documented that there is a small percentage of trans people and an even smaller subset that wants to play sports. Where are they going to find a trans team to play on?

    Every time there are discussions on how to save money in the school budget we hear how sports can’t be cut because of the valuable social skills, learning to be part of a team, and learning to win or lose gracefully. Seems like this is all BS if we can’t find a way to accommodate all kids trying to find their path in life.
    post acknowledged -
    Others have offered some good comments to your post, Flounder.
    I will give it additional thought -

    I will offer,
    I don't believe we can "accommodate all kids" every wish as they ' try to find their path in life. ' and
    until "all kids" have access to fundamental education, adequate nutrition, and fundamental medical care, ,,, and a fundamentally Safe school !

    those will be my priorities.

    skiJ

  16. #66
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    I think everyone is so wrapped up with this goat culture that they can't get it out of their heads when there's an anomaly that fucks up their data set. But wait, you say, we need an apples to apples comparison of the greatest all time Vermont high school girls shot putters and if there's a post pubescent trans girl in the mix then the data isn't reliable enough to crown little Susie as the single finest high school shot putter Vermont has ever seen. Unacceptable!
    Brandine: Now Cletus, if I catch you with pig lipstick on your collar one more time you ain't gonna be allowed to sleep in the barn no more!
    Cletus: Duly noted.

  17. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trackhead View Post
    Bigoted bullshit or just a topic of conversation?
    Guess it depends. Here on TGR I’d say it’s a topic of conversation. In the broader context there is a ton of bigoted bullshit which really can’t be denied.

  18. #68
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    Avi Silverberg, a male power lifting coach, trolled a women’s power lifting event “identifying” as a female to prove a point. Broke yhe previous women’s record by about 100 pounds.

    Obvious troll, but where’s the boundary? What steps should be taken or proven before declaring female status? Testosterone level?

    Curious to answers without vitriol if that’s possible here.

  19. #69
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    Some fun mixed gender track

    "timberridge is terminally vapid" -- a fortune cookie in Yueyang

  20. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timberridge View Post
    It was, because it's a stupid comment. How do you handicap a sprint event that's measured in hundreths of a second?
    By… handicapping them? Pick a target time per event and plus/minus according to past performance. This is just a math problem, it doesn’t matter if we’re measuring in millionths of seconds. Divide competitions and heats by handicap range and get ready to scream at your kid’s coach.

    Or find some other way to split them up. That’s the point right? Give little Jenny something to run for and not be demoralized by Becky who is 6’3” and an athletic freak, whether she’s cis or not? Or is it only a problem if we get to be transphobic about it?
    focus.

  21. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trackhead View Post
    Avi Silverberg, a male power lifting coach, trolled a women’s power lifting event “identifying” as a female to prove a point. Broke yhe previous women’s record by about 100 pounds.

    Obvious troll, but where’s the boundary? What steps should be taken or proven before declaring female status? Testosterone level?

    Curious to answers without vitriol if that’s possible here.
    You post vitriol because you are wedded to this being an issue. And it’s not one. But all of the things to enforce the great trans bans? Those, those are gonna be issues.

    ”timing to 1/100th of a second” is meaningless in events that already have athletes with the same times. 1/100th is about 8cm at state finals 100m, 5cm at 1600m

  22. #72
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    It’s an issue for the UCI and World Athletics, cycling and track-field governing bodies. It is an issue in international in athletics. Both have banned transgender athletes. Various states are doing the same.

    While it’s not an issue for you, clearly it is for many athletic governing bodies.

    I’ll ask again, in athletics, what qualifies someone to participate as a trans-athlete? Previous it was a testosterone level, but that has changed. Should trans-men also be held to a testosterone level they can’t exceed? For many male sports, T:E ratio was a big thing for identifying cheating male athletes taking exogenous testosterone. Maybe a hemoglobin/hematocrit level like cycling during the EPO era?

    If 1/100th of a second is meaningless, why bother with timers/finish line cameras at all?

  23. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mustonen View Post
    By… handicapping them? Pick a target time per event and plus/minus according to past performance. This is just a math problem, it doesn’t matter if we’re measuring in millionths of seconds. Divide competitions and heats by handicap range and get ready to scream at your kid’s coach.
    Ok--give it a shot. Here are Shawnti Jackson's (one of the top HS sprinters) times in the 100m this past spring. What should her handicap be?

    Name:  Capture.JPG
Views: 321
Size:  69.3 KB
    "timberridge is terminally vapid" -- a fortune cookie in Yueyang

  24. #74
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    Title 9 is dead

    Quote Originally Posted by Timberridge View Post
    Ok--give it a shot. Here are Shawnti Jackson's (one of the top HS sprinters) times in the 100m this past spring. What should her handicap be?

    Name:  Capture.JPG
Views: 321
Size:  69.3 KB
    You’d need more data, but this isn’t actually a hard problem, and fuck you if you think I’m going to put this shit into a spreadsheet for you. The point is, whether it’s some sort of handicap-type classification or something else, we can separate competitors by something besides just gender and age (or race or class) and probably fix a few other issues while we’re at it, like economic opportunity and the genetic lottery and a half dozen others.
    focus.

  25. #75
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    These are all the races she ran in this spring. Where do we get more data? Last year when she was a HS junior?
    "timberridge is terminally vapid" -- a fortune cookie in Yueyang

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