Title 9 is dead

[J. Barron DeJong]

I think the only qualified person to opine on this would be a cis-gender female. I can’t see how an adult male would have any idea. Kinda like abortion rights with men telling women what’s right/wrong.

Seems an awful lot like the gays in the locker room concerns everyone had.

[summit]

Title IX wasn’t created to make a fair playing field, it was created to make a playing field where one didn’t exist before. Schools were not investing in women’s sports because there was no money in it. Title IX just said if you’re taking public money you’ve got to invest in sports programs for both women and men.

To me if a school is taking public money they need to find a way to accommodate anyone that wants to play, including trans people. The whole justification of spending public education money on sports are for all benefits associated with being part of a team, competing against others and yourself, and learn about winning and losing. If this is true, everyone should have the opportunity.

On all this we agree. The question is how to include transwomen athletes because they deserve a chance to compete if they desire. My proposal for a solution is to categorize Title IX competition categories as such:

1. Open
2. Female

No special categories for men/women, no category for males, no category for trans.

[summit]

Oh, FFS. Yes, I obviously meant trans women competing against women.

Honest, I am not trying to be pedantic though I think you may interpret me as being so. I don't doubt that you understand that sex and gender are two different, but related, concepts. Trans women competing against cis women is males competing against females.

And I believe the the bell curve of trans women is likely significantly different than that of males as a whole.

Why do you believe that? Even if it was different, that isn't enough. Prove that transwomen have a performance curve analogous to females. Or at least prove that it is much closer to females than to males. I'm not trying to be a dick, but you can't prove that because it isn't true.

[californiagrown]

You believe? Why do you believe that? Even if it was different, that isn't enough. Prove that transwomen have a performance curve analogous to females. Or at least prove that it is much closer to females than to males. I'm not trying to be a dick, but you can't prove that because it isn't true.

transwomen on hormone therapy will have a different bellcurve than a man, and different than that of a woman. If you could get a big enough study pool (because of the variability in "hormone therapy"), it would be interesting to see where the trans w/hormone therapy bellcurve ends up compared to the male and female bellcurves.

[SumJongGuy]

Are men USUALLY stronger and faster than women? Yes, but other than this.. it's still a solution looking for a problem.

[SumJongGuy]

transwomen on hormone therapy will have a different bellcurve than a man, and different than that of a woman. If you could get a big enough study pool (because of the variability in "hormone therapy"), it would be interesting to see where the trans w/hormone therapy bellcurve ends up compared to the male and female bellcurves.

Art imitating life..

[The AD]

Title IX wasn’t created to make a fair playing field, it was created to make a playing field where one didn’t exist before. Schools were not investing in women’s sports because there was no money in it. Title IX just said if you’re taking public money you’ve got to invest in sports programs for both women and men.

Interestingly, the wording of Title IX doesn't even mention sports specifically:

No person in the United States shall, on the basis of sex, be excluded from participation in, be denied the benefits of, or be subjected to discrimination under any education program or activity receiving federal financial assistance.

Nowadays we tend to think of it totally related to women's participation in college sports, but it is much more broad (no pun intended).

[dunfree]

MThat reality is the entire basis for sex segregated sports and Title IX. Title IX wasn't created to support individual feelings of social inclusion, but rather a fair playing field for females.

Typing bullshit you want to believe doesn’t make it so.
[QUOTE]No person in the United States shall, on the basis of sex, be excluded from participation in, be denied the benefits of, or be subjected to discrimination under any education program or activity receiving Federal financial assistance[/QUOTE]

what’s the opposite of exclusion scummit? Is that inclusion? Does no person suggest it applies to individuals?

[SumJongGuy]

[QUOTE=dunfree ;6914183]Typing bullshit you want to believe doesn’t make it so.

No person in the United States shall, on the basis of sex, be excluded from participation in, be denied the benefits of, or be subjected to discrimination under any education program or activity receiving Federal financial assistance[/QUOTE]

what’s the opposite of exclusion scummit? Is that inclusion? Does no person suggest it applies to individuals?

SePaRaTe BuT eQuAl!!!

[J. Barron DeJong]

Honest, I am not trying to be pedantic though I think you may interpret me as being so. I don't doubt that you understand that sex and gender are two different, but related, concepts. Trans women competing against cis women is males competing against females.


Why do you believe that? Even if it was different, that isn't enough. Prove that transwomen have a performance curve analogous to females. Or at least prove that it is much closer to females than to males. I'm not trying to be a dick, but you can't prove that because it isn't true.

I don’t think it needs to be true that the performance be much closer to females than males to justify letting trans women compete with women.

And as Trackhead pointed out, that advantage will vary by sport.

Final standings aren’t the only consideration here.

[Bunion 2020]

On all this we agree. The question is how to include transwomen athletes because they deserve a chance to compete if they desire. My proposal for a solution is to categorize Title IX competition categories as such:

1. Open
2. Female

No special categories for men/women, no category for males, no category for trans.

That works fine until some jackass sues over there being Trans women competing with men and somehow that diminishes the achievements or whatever.

My proposal is this.

Open category, all genders welcome. That's it. If a woman wants to play Football and can make the team? Have at it.

Its fucking College level sports and not meant to be a revenue stream for schools or athletes.

[J. Barron DeJong]

My proposal is this.

Open category, all genders welcome. That's it.

I don’t know what the ideal solution is, but I’m confident this isn’t it.

[Bunion 2020]

You have the right to that opinion.

[The AD]

It is sort of interesting that Title IX has been interpreted as "there needs to be as many female athletes as male athletes at each school to be in compliance."

[J. Barron DeJong]

You have the right to that opinion.

Thank you.

[old goat]

I think the only qualified person to opine on this would be a cis-gender female. I can’t see how an adult male would have any idea. Kinda like abortion rights with men telling women what’s right/wrong.

i don't think you have to be a woman--cis or trans--to know that trans women need to be able to use the women's bathroom for their safety.
I've used multiperson unisex bathrooms in Europe with individual locking stalls. Didn't seem to bother anyone. But we are toaking about places where women don't shave their pits . . .

One good thing about this whole gender identity kerfluffle--it's forced Americans to learn what a pronoun is. Next lesson--adjective or adverb?

[Trackhead]

Agree every human should be able to use a restroom safely. But a locker room is fundamentally different. Being naked in an open multi-person shower is much more vulnerable position than bathroom stall.

Again, buncha dudes thinking we know what it’s like to be a women. We aren’t getting raped on a regular basis (except by teachers in the pervert thread) My wife won’t even go for a hike alone, let alone shower in public with potentially someone with male genitals. I’m not saying trans-women are perverts, but for many people a naked trans woman with male genitals would be very very uncomfortable to see at the public pool changing room.

[californiagrown]

Final standings aren’t the only consideration here.

I'm with Her...m.

[J. Barron DeJong]

I'm with Her...m.

You can still play to win, to do your best. But shit, 99% of college athletes aren’t actually going to ever be in contention to ‘win’.

There’s value in having trans athletes visible, for their community, and hopefully for acceptance in society.

[dunfree]

It is sort of interesting that Title IX has been interpreted as "there needs to be as many female athletes as male athletes at each school to be in compliance."

the number of male athletic scholarships exceeds female by 4k, and the number of female enrolees in college exceeds males by more than that. Men are stupid and lazy, why do they deserve more?

[Core Shot]

Are men USUALLY stronger and faster than women? Yes, but other than this.. it's still a solution looking for a problem.

Wayyy ahead of his time. RIP

[mcski]

[californiagrown]

You can still play to win, to do your best. But shit, 99% of college athletes aren’t actually going to ever be in contention to ‘win’.

There’s value in having trans athletes visible, for their community, and hopefully for acceptance in society.

And there lies the rub. 99% of women athletes in college will not be contenders to win, but 99% of transwomen athletes are. And that is unfair.


I believe (correct me if im wrong) we have specific scientific testing of prosthesis in place for amputee runners to be able to compete in running events. This is to ensure even competition. What is being requested with transwomen is similar to allowing untested prosthesis with notable performance benefits to be used.

[The AD]

the number of male athletic scholarships exceeds female by 4k, and the number of female enrolees in college exceeds males by more than that. Men are stupid and lazy, why do they deserve more?

Who said they deserve more? I just think it's an interesting interpretation of the Title IX text.

[J. Barron DeJong]

And there lies the rub. 99% of women athletes in college will not be contenders to win, but 99% of transwomen athletes are. And that is unfair.


I believe (correct me if im wrong) we have specific scientific testing of prosthesis in place for amputee runners to be able to compete in running events. This is to ensure even competition. What is being requested with transwomen is similar to allowing untested prosthesis with notable performance benefits to be used.

I don’t believe your assertion that 99% of trans athletes are in contention to win is correct. But again, it’s currently 32 people. Out of 260,000. If the trans athletes are automatically in the top 1%, that means they are making up less than 1.25% of that top 1%.