2018 Memorial Day Apology thread

[SkiCougar]

I am not surprised that tgr would put a post up like this for memorial day and that some wars were fought or started by the wants of finances or politicians over the greater good can be argued, it's still exceptionally classless thread imo.

[skifishbum]

im gonna apologize for my drug and alcohol addictions and desires to bone Fraulein's in der poopenhausen
frequently compromising my mission readiness and ability to be all that i could be
may a peace be with us all

and in case that dont work
may there continue to be men , women and gods
that continue to step up take an oath and work at defending our freedoms
to the point off possibly giving all

[wooley12]

2 out of 3 ain't bad Coug.

[SumJongGuy]

I am not surprised that tgr would put a post up like this for memorial day and that some wars were fought or started by the wants of finances or politicians over the greater good can be argued, it's still exceptionally classless thread imo.

Or, that they died for our right do to just that among other things. My father fought in Korea and Vietnam, earned two purple hearts, and is buried at Arlington. He often defended the Vietnam protestors and others who he actually disagreed with because that right to disagree and protest is that America is supposed to be all about..

I may disagree with quite a few things other people say or protest... But, by God I would still fight and die for their right to say them or protest. I am very grateful for those who already did for mine..

[TBS]

Two shout outs today to veterans I knew that gave their lives not in combat, but by their own hand because they couldn’t live with their experience.

The first is my great uncle Herbert Knowles who fought with Patton across North Africa and Italy. Came back a much different man who unsuccessfully tried to numb his mind with a bottle before using a gun.

The second is Daniel Somers, who served in Operation Iraqi Freedom. He was blown up several times in his 400 combat missions. When he came home with PTSD, TBI and fibromyalgia the VA (in Phoenix) fucked him over.

His widow is my daughters best friend.

Here’s his suicide note



To Uncle Herb, Dan and all of the other veterans who take their own lives because of their experience, I am sorry our country failed you. Y’all deserved better.

[wooley12]

Deserves it's own thread. And not in PA. I would post Capt. Charles Shunstrum. Warrior. Medal of Honor. POW. Escaped twice. Fought his way back to Allied forces. Dishonorable Discharge for punching an officer in the face for saying POWs were not heroes. Died drunk in 1972. The DD has been removed. MOH restored. Ex

[SumJongGuy]

Two shout outs today to veterans I knew that gave their lives not in combat, but by their own hand because they couldn’t live with their experience.

The first is my great uncle Herbert Knowles who fought with Patton across North Africa and Italy. Came back a much different man who unsuccessfully tried to numb his mind with a bottle before using a gun.

The second is Daniel Somers, who served in Operation Iraqi Freedom. He was blown up several times in his 400 combat missions. When he came home with PTSD, TBI and fibromyalgia the VA (in Phoenix) fucked him over.

His widow is my daughters best friend.

Here’s his suicide note



To Uncle Herb, Dan and all of the other veterans who take their own lives because of their experience, I am sorry our country failed you. Y’all deserved better.

It's actually the official position of the US military that any veteran that dies due to PTSD related illnesses, including those due to addiction in the aftermath (drugs, alcohol, even tobacco) and while suffering from PTSD, are considered "combat related fatalities" and entitled to all honors due to them and their families as such..

[ill-advised strategy]

My helitack crew knew things were not operating safely with the rushed implementation of S-61 aircraft into national helitack. We had multiple sketchy things happen, 3 of us felt uneasy about it all and were told to hold our tongues because this was a big deal and the pilots would work it all out. Days later we incinerated 9 young men and severely wounded 4 others. I could have prevented this if I had the balls to stand up to some poltical bs.
I'm incredibly sorry to:
Shawn Blazer, 30, of Medford, Ore.
Scott Charlson, 25, of Phoenix, Ore.
Edrik Gomez, 19, of Ashland, Ore.
Matt Hammer, 23, of Grants Pass, Ore.
Steven Caleb Renno, 21, of Cave Junction, Ore.
Bryan Rich, 29, of Medford, Ore.
David Steele, 19, of Ashland, Ore.
Roark Schwanenberg, 54, of Lostine, Ore
and Jim Ramage, 64, of Redding, Calif.



I'm also exceptionally sorry to Andy Palmer, 18, of Port Townsend WA.

When Andy was hit by a tree in a freak tree-felling accident on his very first fire at age 18, those of us on the incident helibase listened anxiously to the piece of shit California incident management team fumble around trying to save money by not immediately ordering a medical helicopter. We knew it was bad from the increasingly desperate and troubling radio calls from the accident site. If we had any balls, we would have positively intervened around the chain of command and got a medical helicopter on the way from one of the hospitals or the coast guard. By the time the management team fucked around not ordering one, we had already sent a non-medical, non-hoist-equipped aircraft from our helibase to see if there was anything they could do...which was the only thing we thought we could do inside of our chain of command....it was of no help. Andy needed a medical ship with a hoist, and it came very late, Andy bled out onboard, he could have been saved by that time period in which I failed to take those actions. I'm very, very sorry. There are some somber people in wildland fire on the Olympic Peninsula over this, and I met some of them when I moved up there after my career was over....I'm sorry to them as well.
https://www.wildfirelessons.net/orph...6-4aa823b7efef


Fire isn't the military, and it's not war. But it's a lot like that in many ways...I guess these ways actually.
In both cases I was so worried about my chain of command that I didn't intervene and save these lives. I should have. I'm sorry.

[TBS]

It's actually the official position of the US military that any veteran that dies due to PTSD related illnesses, including those due to addiction in the aftermath (drugs, alcohol, even tobacco) and while suffering from PTSD, are considered "combat related fatalities" and entitled to all honors due to them and their families as such..

It was also official US military position to deny Dan treatment for his PTSD & TBI at the Phoenix VA, where he lived, for six fucking years. Basically, they just turned him into a pill junkie to deal with all of his other physical ailments.

He was denied private psychological counseling because VA decided his conditions (auditory hallucinations and daily suicidal ideation) didn’t merit same. And yet, he wasn’t allowed to participate in group counseling because he was part of an intelligence division and “knew too much”. He was treated by his mother in law - a psychiatrist in private practice.

I’d much rather our military’s position be to honor its wounded with proper care while they are alive - full military honors after they are dead seems like too little, too late dontchathink?

[old goat]

Dishonorable Discharge for punching an officer in the face for saying POWs were not heroes.

Hmmm.

Re vets who kill themselves--
We owe the damaged living as much as we owe the dead, if not more. If a soldier comes back without a limb, or two, or four, they seem to get good care. If they come back a different person we let them down. Too many vets standing with signs next to freeway off ramps. At least the VA isstarting to realize that a lot of cases of PTSD are actually TBI--who knows how many, probably a lot more than anyone realizes. The stories and symptoms of returned vets who kill themselves sound so much like the stories of ex football and hockey players who do the same. I realize that Memorial Day is to remember the dead and Veterans' Day the rest--but two days a year doesn't seem like too many to honor the living vets who left a part of themselves over there--and to honor them by paying them back with decent care and resources.

[wooley12]

@TBS.The timing is right for your Senator and Congressman to hear your story about the VA. Something you could do for them.

[wooley12]

The judge dismissed the charges and called for better care of returning vets.

[SumJongGuy]

I’d much rather our military’s position be to honor its wounded with proper care while they are alive - full military honors after they are dead seems like too little, too late dontchathink?

I think it starts with our economic systems being rigged to favor the children of the wealthy over the children of the poor in access to higher education and better job opportunities, investment opportunities, and concentration of wealth. That leaves behind a lot of the less wealthy who don't both devote way more effort and bandwidth towards excelling in the free education available AND be incredibly lucky enough to secure a decent career and living. Way too many others end up washing out with only the military as the best viable option to cover their basic needs.

Now, for some the military life does wonders turning people who were pure trouble into decent community citizens. For others, the military experience turns decent people into emotional wrecks and psychopaths. Either way, with so many getting deployed either to die or come back unemployable the silver spoons have less competition for the few good jobs available here at home..

[BobMc]

My legal father chased people through the jungles of Vietnam. He shot himself in the head about 15 years ago.

[SumJongGuy]

We've also entered a new era where pretty much EVERYONE who joins the military will be a combat veteran within a year or two of enlisting. When I was growing up the military members and retired who were actual combat veterans were the exception.. Older people who fought in WWII, Korea, or Vietnam. Pretty much all my friends who enlisted in the 70s or 80s didn't see any real combat. There was those Grenada and Nicaragua field trips but nothing like today where all our young soldiers are sent in to the latest fray somewhere nobody here actually cares about all that much..

[TBS]

@TBS.The timing is right for your Senator and Congressman to hear your story about the VA. Something you could do for them.

When Dan died I wrote to John McCain (Dan lived in AZ) and Bernie Sanders who was then head of VA oversight committee. From McCain I got back a word salad that sounded like it was written by some software program. From Bernie I got zero, nada, nothing back.

So fuck John McCain and fuck Bernie Sanders

[Tippster]

I apologize that we still get young adults fucked up or killed for very spurious reasons, and that the poor bear the blood burden of the wealthy's choices.

[ill-advised strategy]

Yes, we send poor kids to war with promises of job skills and college tuition...
Seems like it would be more fair for everyone of all classes to serve and for job skills or college tuition to be a given for everyone.

[skiJ]

guys...

Anthony Monroe. Iraq, 2004.


Just a stray thought here., but rather than apologizing,

how about be begin to try to change :


a former colleague was bragging about his two kids service - one who is going to use the military to become a surgeon , and I said,

" how about If we outlive war... "

. . . probably Not realistic, given how hardwired we seem to be as a species to FIGHT.


I support the soldier. I do not support the politician who sends the soldier To war ( " ... to protect our supply of oil ... " (G.H.W.Bush library )

goat. I believe WWII was Everyone's war.
Fascism. tyranny. had Germany overrun England I believe we would live in a different world. I believe it was close.
( was Germany within sight of Leningrad (?) )

( I believe it was close. I believe WWII was everyone's war... )


so. I will write my congressional representatives - about real reform. and ending wars we cannot 'win. '

I do not believe in peace on earth : there are too many people against it.


Anthony Monroe was a kid with his whole life in front of him... he was just a kid.

change...

Thanks for listening. I love this place... (!)


free 'BigLost. tj

[old goat]

"Now as I sit here safe at home
With a cold Coors Lite an' the TV on
All the sacrifice and the death and woe
Lord I pray that I'm worth fighting for"

--Lyle Lovett, "Natural Forces"

[Rideski]

[skiJ]

" Back Home they don't know too much
it was just too hard to tell
( I guess ) you had to be there
to know that war is Hell "

Arlo. 'When a soldier makes it home ' (1996)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDAl7lGGtSo


i-as : I am sorry for your trauma. wildfire fighting seems,,, ( … amazing. I am sure there are better terms. )


Keep on(,) keeping on. ( one of these years we will make some turns out at MM )

… from the west end. tj

[old goat]

There's s a Vietnam Vet with a cardboard sign
Sitting there by the left turn line
The flag on his wheelchair flapping in the breeze
One leg missing and both hands free
No one's paying much mind to him
The V.A. budget's s just stretched so thin
And now there's more coming back from the Mideast war
We can't make it here anymore
Should I hate a people for the shade of their skin
Or the shape of their eyes or the shape I'm in
Should I hate 'em for having our jobs today
No I hate the men sent the jobs away
I can see them all now, they haunt my dreams
All lily white and squeaky clean
They've never known want, they'll never know need
Their shit don't stink and their kids won't bleed
Their kids won't bleed in the damn little war
And we can't make it here anymore

Should I hate a people for the shade of their skin
Or the shape of their eyes or the shape I'm in
Should I hate 'em for having our jobs today
No I hate the men sent the jobs away
I can see them all now, they haunt my dreams
All lily white and squeaky clean
They've never known want, they'll never know need
Their shit don't stink and their kids won't bleed
Their kids won't bleed in the damn little war
And we can't make it here anymore

Will work for food
Will die for oil
Will kill for power and to us the spoils
The billionaires get to pay less tax
The working poor get to fall through the cracks
Let 'em eat jellybeans let 'em eat cake
Let 'em eat shit, whatever it takes
They can join the Air Force, or join the Corps
If they can't make it here anymore
---James McMurtry, "We Can't Make It Here"



While we're talking about holidays--

[SumJongGuy]

Trickle down economics at work.. Even when middle aged middle class people refinance their home to get their kids a college degree or trade school certifications... still way too many can't find any way to earn a living wage and get out of their parents' basements without having to join the military as the last resort. We give them high fives and praise them for "their service" placing them on a well deserved pedestal but most joined simply because they ran out of other options..