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  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by GhostofSeasonsPast View Post
    Yes and yes
    So, you believe that 911 call center should have full immunity if through it's obvious that its negligence or worse (gross negligence or recklessness) causes a 4-hour delay in responding to a duly reported traffic collision and an innocent traffic accident victim bleeds out as a result of the delay?

    Quote Originally Posted by GhostofSeasonsPast View Post
    Motorists owe each other reasonable care on the road. . . .
    That's irrelevant. The issue here is duty of governmental entities, i.e., 911 call center and sheriff's office. That has nothing to do with the duties MV operators owe to each other.

  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by stuckathuntermtn View Post
    But again, I'd imagine there's some kind of immunity here.
    I would think so, possibly the public duty doctrine aka special duty doctrine. Maybe an OR attorney can chime in. As I mentioned above, AFAIK OR does have a hard cap on personal injury damage claims against local governments, although I don't know whether that applies here.

  3. #28
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    Ya gotta figure 911 calls from Hood aren't a new thing, though. In or out of the ski areas. Someone should definitely be fired.
    But there has to be some sort of discretionary immunity. Maybe that's why Officer Hide in the Bushes in Parkland, FL still gets a full pension.
    No longer stuck.

    Quote Originally Posted by stuckathuntermtn View Post
    Just an uneducated guess.

  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by BCMountainHound View Post
    I certainly canít speak to SAR in other jurisdictions, but there are certainly growing pains in backcountry SAR in BC. The use of the backcountry is growing by those that spend most of their time in urban settings. These people and their families have brought a different set of expectations of support with them. Our response capability has vastly improved. Not that long ago, a backcountry rescue required hiking several kms on foot to reach a subject, assuming their location was even known. Communication between the subject and emergency services has now also progressed significantly - far fewer are relying on a member of the party running out to get help.
    All this has caught tasking agencies, especially the RCMP and 911 services, flat footed. They just donít have the legacy of training and experience with the volume and complexity of the various tasks they are now faced with. I certainly donít think they are being negligent, but there are obvious many aspects that require improvement. My heart goes out to the family of the subject, but better funding and resourcing to those jurisdictions that have seen exponential upticks in backcountry use would be better than suing those agencies for their current level of expertise and readiness.
    I agree with all of this. Unfortunately though - governments sometimes need to get kicked in the ass before they do anything. All the good intentions won't convince gov'ts to invest in properly training their people.

    The way it is going here, all our dispatch will be going to Mumbai within 10 years.

    Again, no idea if the dispatch was negligent or not, or if that negligence was the cause of the damages - just that if they can't get it together to dispatch properly on Mt. Hood - which I gather is fairly popular, what about more remote areas?

  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by adrenalated View Post
    The brief transcripts of the 911 calls in the video really highlight the importance of clearly relaying complete and accurate information about the nature of the emergency and the type of response required when you're on the line with dispatch.
    this bears repeating.

  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by stuckathuntermtn View Post
    Ya gotta figure 911 calls from Hood aren't a new thing, though. In or out of the ski areas. Someone should definitely be fired.
    But there has to be some sort of discretionary immunity. Maybe that's why Officer Hide in the Bushes in Parkland, FL still gets a full pension.
    Delays aren't unusual on Hood, either. In the early 2000s Eric Pollard had to wait about the same period of time, after I believe patrol declined to rescue (he was out of bounds).

    If someone was for instance intoxicated, which no reports suggest, discipline could in that case be warranted. But, confusion, and or a delay in rescue? It is what it is.

  7. #32
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    From the complaint:
    At 12:11 pm Portland Mountain Rescue told Clackamas County Sheriff's office that a helicopter was needed. At 12:29 pm Oregon office of Emergency Management called Oregon Army National Guard to request a helicopter.
    The suit is against county entities (911 dispatch, Sheriff's office, county itself), so the delay we're talking about is 18 minutes (including the time to relay through a state agency), not 4 hours. (Maybe the national guard should have moved more quickly, but that's not really the county's fault, unless the plaintiff can show some negligence in the information passed along.)

    Also part of the complaint is that the defendants didn't inform the rescue team that they should do a ground rescue - given the climber's condition (especially in retrospect), would a ground evac down over 4000 vertical feet really have been a good idea?

  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeezerSteve View Post
    So, you believe that 911 call center should have full immunity if through it's obvious that its negligence or worse (gross negligence or recklessness) causes a 4-hour delay in responding to a duly reported traffic collision and an innocent traffic accident victim bleeds out as a result of the delay?

    That's irrelevant. The issue here is duty of governmental entities, i.e., 911 call center and sheriff's office. That has nothing to do with the duties MV operators owe to each other.
    They should have been carrying a tourniquet.

  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by teledad View Post
    (Maybe the national guard should have moved more quickly, but that's not really the county's fault, unless the plaintiff can show some negligence in the information passed along.)

    Also part of the complaint is that the defendants didn't inform the rescue team that they should do a ground rescue - given the climber's condition (especially in retrospect), would a ground evac down over 4000 vertical feet really have been a good idea?
    Aren't the J's of the 304th in Portland usually first due on Hood rather than the Army guard?

  10. #35
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    Iíll probably get flak for saying this, but it feels to me like the family is trying to cash in on the death of their loved one, which I find distasteful.

  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by billyk View Post
    Iíll probably get flak for saying this, but it feels to me like the family is trying to cash in on the death of their loved one, which I find distasteful.
    Grief can be hard, they could easily also be getting manipulated by the attorney to truly feel like a wrong was done. But I agree the fact of the lawsuit is extremely distasteful, even worse than suing for terrain park injuries.

  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by teledad View Post
    From the complaint:


    The suit is against county entities (911 dispatch, Sheriff's office, county itself), so the delay we're talking about is 18 minutes (including the time to relay through a state agency), not 4 hours. (Maybe the national guard should have moved more quickly, but that's not really the county's fault, unless the plaintiff can show some negligence in the information passed along.)
    That's not how I understand the timeline. Seems like the issue is the fact that 911 kicked the first call over to ski patrol even though it wasn't an accident involving anyone at the resort.

  13. #38
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    Reminds me a little of one of the Columbine shooting lawsuits that survived a motion to dismiss; the basic argument was that because the police's approach at the time was to blockade the building and wait, a teacher bled out after the shooters had committed suicide.

  14. #39
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    Wow. 600 feet is like 50-60 stories. Even if itís not shear vert, thatís a tough one to make it through, no?

  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by billyk View Post
    I’ll probably get flak for saying this, but it feels to me like the family is trying to cash in on the death of their loved one, which I find distasteful.
    Could also be subrogation and they have no choice.
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    And there will come a day when our ancestors look back...........

  16. #41
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    You guys have a lot of legal opinions for dentists

  17. #42
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    Dentists get sued a lot.

    Mostly sexual stuff

  18. #43
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    Looking at the time line actual time lost is about 45 minutes from the time the initial 911 call was made to T-line patrol connecting with Clackamas county, then requesting a helicopter. If you look at other real life rescue events 45 minute delays probably isn't too uncommon when working with multiple agencies and requiring mountain rescues. It's not like 911 dispatchers receive heli rescue requests frequently. A few judgments against agencies like this and they'll just say fuck it and tell people their on their own in the wilderness. Keep in mind every joker with a NF jacket and a REI card climbs Mt Hood in Oregon and considers themselves an experienced climber.

  19. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThreeRidges View Post
    Wow. 600 feet is like 50-60 stories. Even if itís not shear vert, thatís a tough one to make it through, no?
    With a couple of ropes any climber can set up a lowering system on that terrain and at least start moving the injured towards help. In my own opinion climbers should know the basics of self evac and first aid as part of their basic skills. I also think most people donít understand how 911 works once you are away from populated areas
    ďI have a responsibility to not be intimidated and bullied by low life losers who abuse what little power is granted to them as ski patrollers.Ē

  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by sfotex View Post
    Last summer we had a guy that called 911 on Mount Olympus (local peak that attracts lots of inexperienced hikers) saying he was lost and cliffed out, and was about to fall to his death. We had the helicopter going for another rescue in the area, so we flew up within a few minutes of getting the call, and found him leaning against the trail sign. There was this awkward moment of 'What's going on here?' his response was 'Well, my legs got crampy, and I was worried I was going to fall off the trail, but now I feel better now' He never thought that calling 911 and saying he was about to fall to his death would result in a SAR rescue....
    Wow....

    I've put myself in some kinda sketchy places up there. But I don't know how I'd respond to that if I showed up on that scene

  21. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by fatnslow View Post
    Looking at the time line actual time lost is about 45 minutes from the time the initial 911 call was made to T-line patrol connecting with Clackamas county, then requesting a helicopter. If you look at other real life rescue events 45 minute delays probably isn't too uncommon when working with multiple agencies and requiring mountain rescues. It's not like 911 dispatchers receive heli rescue requests frequently. A few judgments against agencies like this and they'll just say fuck it and tell people their on their own in the wilderness. Keep in mind every joker with a NF jacket and a REI card climbs Mt Hood in Oregon and considers themselves an experienced climber.
    this^^ 911 will ask you for your address because 99% of the time they need an address to typ into a screen so if you give them A spot on A mountain or A river in the wilderness they haven't a clue

    I was in an incident where the pilot was called directly and we got a really quick response and I know of another rescue where the guy definitely lived cuz they got ahold of a pilot and rescue tech directly
    Lee Lau - xxx-er is the laziest Asian canuck I know

  22. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by XXX-er View Post
    this^^ 911 will ask you for your address because 99% of the time they need an address to typ into a screen so if you give them A spot on A mountain or A river in the wilderness they haven't a clue

    I was in an incident where the pilot was called directly and we got a really quick response and I know of another rescue where the guy definitely lived cuz they got ahold of a pilot and rescue tech directly
    I believe part of the problem is a lot of the software for 911 hasnít caught up with current cellphone technology and the upgrades for these systems can be very costly any many systems like you say are based around street addresses and less so trying to pin point you on your phone and some of the dispatchers themselves are unfamiliar with response areas outside of city limits
    ďI have a responsibility to not be intimidated and bullied by low life losers who abuse what little power is granted to them as ski patrollers.Ē

  23. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThreeRidges View Post
    Wow. 600 feet is like 50-60 stories. Even if itís not shear vert, thatís a tough one to make it through, no?
    the articles are linked in the oregon thread i think. he was pretty messed up and i think i read the end of his slide/fall was through slide debris that was apparently not small.

  24. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by snapt View Post
    Aren't the J's of the 304th in Portland usually first due on Hood rather than the Army guard?
    Correct

    Quote Originally Posted by PNWbrit View Post
    Could also be subrogation and they have no choice.
    My thought too. Life insurance co trying to weasel out of paying.

    From what I can see plaintiff is grasping at straws. Helo was dispatched 90min after first call. Those on the scene said they thought they could get the injured guy down on their own, then changed their mind. Donít know why it took 2.7 hrs for helo to get there - aircraft must have not been at PDX base - but that seems the big delay.

    Iím also mystified about why routing the call to Tline patrol is a bad thing. They have cats that can get personnel & equipment to at least Silcox Hut, and farther if they can cross into wilderness during an emergency. Thatís way faster than trying to deploy a PMR or Crag Rats team

    Hereís a helo rescue on Mt Hood gone wrong. The narrative is a little overwrought but itís still one of those holy shit moments. And it illustrates the ďsuicide pactĒ Steve described upthread.

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  25. #50
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    Our team got sued in 2011 because we didn't find a body in a river fast enough:
    "The failure to conduct the search in a proper manner resulted in his body not being found for some seven weeks, thereby prolonging the emotional pain and suffering of the plaintiffs"

    https://www.ksl.com/?nid=960&sid=15973887

    We spent a week on that fucking sewage pipe of a river with dive teams, sonar, people in zodiacs with probe poles, and multiple helicopters flying the shore. We had divers in the water in 30 mins, and grid poles up with in an hour of him going in. When I got out every day and got the pleasure of getting decontaminated by fire. Some people just suck.
    When life gives you haters, make haterade.

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