The Nutrition Science thread

[neufox47]

I heard he clocked him with a zucchini he had hidden in his shorts.

That was the other PPV.

[The AD]

Could a Keto Diet Be Bad for Athletes’ Bones?

Race walkers on a low-carbohydrate, high-fat ketogenic diet showed early signs indicative of bone loss.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/05/w...tes-bones.html

[Dantheman]

I'm not a keto advocate, but that seems like a weak study. 3-week duration concurrent with intense low-impact aerobic training (something that tends to be correlated with reduced bone density all on it's own, osteopenia is common in high-level endurance cyclists). Also, they did not measure bone density directly--they tracked blood markers associated with bone formation and breakdown. Why not do before/after DEXA scans? DEXA is cheap, I don't get it.

FWIW, Zach Bitter, the current 100-mile WR holder, eats a diet that is basically keto and super heavy on animal products.

[MiddleOfNight]

How big was the sample size? Also, is there a chance the hormones correct or bounce back after an extended period of time? 3 weeks doesn't seem long enough to really say anything for sure. and +1 on using scans instead of blood markers - water down their results with an unnecessary layer of 'association?'

Not a keto advocate either, but it's fun to read about.
If it sounds too good to be true ..

[The AD]

My gut tells me any kind of extreme diet regimen is going to have some kind of negative consequences.

[SB]

[Dantheman]

How big was the sample size? Also, is there a chance the hormones correct or bounce back after an extended period of time? 3 weeks doesn't seem long enough to really say anything for sure. and +1 on using scans instead of blood markers - water down their results with an unnecessary layer of 'association?'

Not a keto advocate either, but it's fun to read about.
If it sounds too good to be true ..

30 people, full text of the study is available: https://www.frontiersin.org/articles....00880/full#F1

No details provided about what they actually ate.

[Dantheman]

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full...8.2020.1741505

"The majority of studies, and especially the higher quality studies, showed that those who avoided meat consumption had significantly higher rates or risk of depression, anxiety, and/or self-harm behaviors."

[glademaster]

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full...8.2020.1741505

"The majority of studies, and especially the higher quality studies, showed that those who avoided meat consumption had significantly higher rates or risk of depression, anxiety, and/or self-harm behaviors."

This seems apropos.

[Skistack]

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full...8.2020.1741505

"The majority of studies, and especially the higher quality studies, showed that those who avoided meat consumption had significantly higher rates or risk of depression, anxiety, and/or self-harm behaviors."

Causation or correlation?

[iceman]

Or, chicken or the egg?

[Dantheman]

Causation or correlation?

Full text is available if you want to dig deeper: https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/...10cnVlQEBAMA==

Found the following within:

"This qualitative analysis resulted in 18 papers that met the inclusion/exclusion criteria. These included 16 cross-sectional, 1 mixed cross-sectional and longitudinal study, and 1 RTC."
...
"Across all studies, there was no evidence to support a causal relation between the consumption or avoidance of meat and any psychological outcomes. However, three studies provided evidence suggesting (contradictory) temporal relations between meat-abstention and depression and anxiety."
...
"Third, despite the high confidence we place in our finding that meat-abstention is linked to psychological disorders, study designs and lack of rigor precluded valid inferences of temporality and causality."

So, with only one RCT available there's no way to say either way. They also menton that there could be some reverse-causation happening where people with existing mental health issues are more likely to adopt vegetarian diets post-diagnosis. The one RCT that met the inclusion/exclusion criteria also had some issues:

"In 2012, Beezhold and Johnston (2012) conducted a RCT in which 39 self-characterized omnivores (82% female) were assigned to one of three groups: lacto-vegetarian (i.e., avoided all animal foods except dairy), ovo-pescatarian (i.e., avoided meat and poultry but consumed fish and eggs), or omnivore (i.e., consumed meat and/or poultry at least once daily). Their results suggested that restricting meat, fish, and poultry improved some domains of short-term mood states. As detailed in our discussion, this study had major design flaws (e.g., potential observer-expectancy effects) and errors in interpretation and communication (e.g., nonequivalent groups at baseline, failure to recognize regression to the mean)."

[Ski220]

I usually try and eat healthy. I also eat whatever I want.

My aunt and uncle were always into health foods and eating correct diets. She's almost 94 now. Uncle, he passed away over 30 years ago.

, a lot of cheese, .

That's what's gonna clog your arteries, give you heart disease and kill ya.

[SkiBall]

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full...8.2020.1741505

"The majority of studies, and especially the higher quality studies, showed that those who avoided meat consumption had significantly higher rates or risk of depression, anxiety, and/or self-harm behaviors."

And higher rates of self-righteousness as well in subjects were observed.

[Danno]

After over 2 years of keto or just very low carb (because I'm not truly keto anymore most days), my cholesterol numbers are interesting. My HDL went up, my triglycerides went down, so that's good news. But my LDL went way up, which is bad news by the standard approach, but may be fine.

[whipski]

anecdotal experience from a lifetime in healthcare: Do everything right...die anyway ; )

After over 2 years of keto or just very low carb (because I'm not truly keto anymore most days), my cholesterol numbers are interesting. My HDL went up, my triglycerides went down, so that's good news. But my LDL went way up, which is bad news by the standard approach, but may be fine.

[Name Redacted]

After over 2 years of keto or just very low carb (because I'm not truly keto anymore most days), my cholesterol numbers are interesting. My HDL went up, my triglycerides went down, so that's good news. But my LDL went way up, which is bad news by the standard approach, but may be fine.

Yeah, I stopped Keto for the same reason partially. That and my penchant for beer. I also feel like my cholesterol was high because I ate at Slogar in CB multiple times in the week leading up to my last physical. Doc said that my high HDLs canceled out my high LDLs for now, but it wasn't optimal.

Keto may or may not be healthy, I feel like the jury is still out on that despite some pretty good scientific studies. However, I feel like there's very good evidence that the LDL cholesterol is bad and I don't want to fuck with clogged arteries down the road just because I needed to lose a few lbs in my 40's.

[Danno]

Yeah, I stopped Keto for the same reason partially. That and my penchant for beer. I also feel like my cholesterol was high because I ate at Slogar in CB multiple times in the week leading up to my last physical. Doc said that my high HDLs canceled out my high LDLs for now, but it wasn't optimal.

Keto may or may not be healthy, I feel like the jury is still out on that despite some pretty good scientific studies. However, I feel like there's very good evidence that the LDL cholesterol is bad and I don't want to fuck with clogged arteries down the road just because I needed to lose a few lbs in my 40's.

I'm not sure the evidence is so clear that LDL is bad.

[Name Redacted]

I'm not sure the evidence is so clear that LDL is bad.

I'm sure there's evidence to the contrary, but it is pretty widely accepted by the CDC, mayo clinic, and many other well respected scientific organizations that LDL form plaque in the arteries and that is a bad thing.

But I'm sure a quick google search could find an article showing that mainlining some LDL gives you super human strength and will make you live forever. or that it is a vast left wing conspiracy against the meat, dairy, and chicken farm industry.

[bodywhomper]

I'm sure there's evidence to the contrary, but it is pretty widely accepted by the CDC, mayo clinic, and many other well respected scientific organizations that LDL form plaque in the arteries and that is a bad thing.

But I'm sure a quick google search could find an article showing that mainlining some LDL gives you super human strength and will make you live forever. or that it is a vast left wing conspiracy against the meat, dairy, and chicken farm industry.

like this? :P

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6024687/

[Name Redacted]

like this? :P

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6024687/

Did you even read that article? It is stating exactly my point. "Dietary Cholesterol" includes both LDL and HDL. LDL= Bad, HDL=Good. LDL= Saturated fat. LDL raises your chances of CVD. If you keep it in check, you'll lower your risk of CVD. Sounds like a pretty good thing to me, so I guess I'll make an effort.

6. Conclusions
The current literature does not support the notion that dietary cholesterol increases the risk of heart disease in a healthy individuals. However, there is an ample evidence that saturated fatty acids and trans-fats increase cardiovascular disease risk. The fact that dietary cholesterol is common in foods that are high in saturated fatty acids might have contributed to the hypothesis that dietary cholesterol is atherogenic. In contrast, eggs are affordable, rich in protein and micronutrients, nutrient-dense and low in saturated fatty acids. The healthy eating pattern can incorporate nutrient-dense, calorie controlled meals with balanced nutrients and a variety of colorful vegetables and fruits. The body of literature regarding dietary cholesterol and cardiovascular disease in patients diagnosed with diabetes is still inconclusive and warrants further research.

[bodywhomper]

Did you even read that article? It is stating exactly my point. "Dietary Cholesterol" includes both LDL and HDL. LDL= Bad, HDL=Good. LDL= Saturated fat. LDL raises your chances of CVD. If you keep it in check, you'll lower your risk of CVD. Sounds like a pretty good thing to me, so I guess I'll make an effort.

sorry, i pasted the wrong article. i had a couple of tabs open. this is what i intended to paste. acting too quickly while inhaling lunch:
https://www.onlinejacc.org/content/76/7/844

[Dantheman]

If your TC is reasonable, HDL is high and TGs are low I wouldn't be too worried about your LDL.

Danno - What were your actual numbers? How was your glucose and A1C?

[Danno]

If your TC is reasonable, HDL is high and TGs are low I wouldn't be too worried about your LDL.

Danno - What were your actual numbers? How was your glucose and A1C?

Total Cholesterol: 305
HDL: 57
LDL: 233
TriG: 75

These other numbers I am not familiar with, but in the test results it said
A1C: 5.5%
There were 2 glucose numbers, not sure what they are.
Estimated avg glucose: 111
Glucose: 100

I am going to get a coronary calcium scan soon.

[Mazderati]

Are those fasted numbers?