Curbing the Lite Wt Boot / GripWalk enthusiasm

[iriponsnow]

https://www.pugski.com/threads/curbi...-warning.9813/

Important cross post:

In @Ron ‘s excellent recap of the new K2 boot I must admit I got a little anxious - okay a lot anxious. I’ve seen that boot in the shop along with the offerings from Head & Salomon for 2019. Now I’m a 25, so I’ve not skied any of the 26’s. However, I’ve got about 50 days in a Dalbello Lupo Factory.

Now the Factory is a Grilimid / Walk Mode / GripWalk mastery.


My worries with this boot started one day when I met a group to skin up dawn patrol style & accidentally forgot my skins. No worries I just strapped my skis to my back and walked up. But what I noticed though was that the clog flexed an incredible amount while boot packing.

Fast forward to the middle of the season and I noticed that when I was testing skis for ExoticSkis.com, unless they had really dialed in the mounting point (something that is usually not the case & a lot of what we actually help determine with the testing), I greatly struggled with skis over 180 and wider than 100 mm. Once we got the mounting point down, it got a little bit more manageable but I really needed to finesse the turns. This was really the case with the Renouns - apologies to @Cyrus Schenck.

At about the same time I noticed that the Intuition liners that I usually love, had developed an an usual characteristic of just completely going to mush. I had never seen an Intuition “shit the bed” in so few days. My solution was to take a well molded Pro Wrap - burly liner & slap em in the Factory to improve my skiing/feel.

This really didn’t help-what I noticed in soft spring snow was that as I was 2/3 of the way through the turn the outside ski would actually run into the uphill ski. This is never happened! It was if I had no control of the uphill ski without a ton of weight on it.

The final straw for me in my cautionary tale came when @Eric Edelstein tossed
tossed me some proto 196 big mtn chargers from Liberty that were > 110mm.

Now it’s the end of the season, the snow is pretty soft and I’m not skiing hard-but I was full on ripping out of the binding. Basically the clog would just flex out and release. Now before I said anything about this I wanted to double blind the scenario so I grabbed my usual 104 mm trusted Renouns and completely went over the bindings (different from the Liberty set) and set the forward pressure, DIN and toe height PERFECTLY. Same scenario.

When I took them back to the shop and discuss the situation I was told two things:

1) “We were wondering when this would happen-pushing the envelope with these lightweight boots has been questionable. More so with skis over 100mm.”

2) “ this is a trend you’re going to have to be wary of-I would not put you in anything other than a solid sole PU boot moving forward.”

Now the shop has agreed to warrantee these in the fall and before anyone goes jumping off a cliff saying this is just N of one, I am 145 pounds and in my mid 40s-my charging days are behind me. There’s visible shear on the toe / heel lugs & most are skiing in a larger shell than mine & will have more of a moment are to flex the clog.

I’m really fortunate that I get to test gear and regularly have a bunch of boots laying around, but if you were the average Joe you don’t have that luxury. Please consider this a cautionary warning.

I will say that the Factory for a soft snow uphill downhill boot is absolutely superb and I wouldn’t have any issues on my 85 mm touring skis in new snow, but most people are looking for that crossover boot which covers the entire quiver and if you tend to be on longer skis, charge or like to rip turns on fatter boards-it’s worth considering some of the possible issues with these sub 2000 gram boots pairs with GripWalk.

[gregL]

It sounds like flex in the sole is the problem, not the fact that there is GripWalk rubber on the bottom or that the boot weighs under 2000 grams or that it's made of Grilamid. One could verify this by switching to ISO 5355 Lupo soles. Dalbello could likely rectify this by making the sole a few mm's thicker through the midfoot. I've skied plenty of other light crossover boots with GripWalk and WTR soles without incident (haven't skied the Factory, but I know someone who ripped hard on them all year without problem).

[XavierD]

I think this has more to do with bindings than the boots, unless you got a bad pair. The grilimid is incredibly stiff. I bet you’ll find more shell flex in a 120 flex PU boot with a soft bootboard.

Bindings can be an issue.

Demo bindings? I’ve booted out of plenty of demo bindings in my RS. I doubt it was the boot.

[rod9301]

Also the sole has a lot to do with it.

Rubber soles deform and whatever angle you're trying to get to in the boot will translate into a lower edge angle because the sole compresses on the inside more than the outside.

Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using TGR Forums mobile app

[stuckathuntermtn]

It's hard to get a feel for stuff in warm weather, since it just gets sloppy. Also, the Lupo needs some adjustments to be less upright .

[XXX-er]

I think soft boots may be lighter but for actual skiing down ... they suck

I find intuition liners last a long time in the right shell , so i wonder how many people have a shell that is wrong / too big for their foot and expect to take up the excess space with the liner

Which doesn't last very long before packing out?

[westoxified]

just here to say that people using the word CLOG should be flushed.

[DropCliffsNotBombs]

Lightweight boots are great for touring uphill but SUCK for charging. Period.
Flip over a lightweight touring boot... now flip over an alpine race boot... See the difference? Which one do YOU think controls the ski better?

[hafjell]

What part of the boot is the clog?

[galibier_numero_un]

It sounds like flex in the sole is the problem, not the fact that there is GripWalk rubber on the bottom or that the boot weighs under 2000 grams or that it's made of Grilamid. One could verify this by switching to ISO 5355 Lupo soles. Dalbello could likely rectify this by making the sole a few mm's thicker through the midfoot. I've skied plenty of other light crossover boots with GripWalk and WTR soles without incident (haven't skied the Factory, but I know someone who ripped hard on them all year without problem).

That Pugski thread is pretty funny (at this point, anecdotal) and pins my bullshit meter to the right.

They're conflating Gripwalk with light (i.e. Grilamid), and then indicting Gripwalk.

My first thought was in line with Greg's - sole design/flex, and possibly rubber.

... Thom

[BC.]

just here to say that people using the word CLOG should be flushed.

The same people who are using “clog” are also using the word “kit”.

Those two words should be/are both in the "Shit that Annoys You" thread.......lol

[FlimFlamvanHam]

The same people who are using “clog” are using the word “kit”.

Morans. "Kit" is hurting slang and those using it, except in jest, are twats.

But 'clog' isn't slang. It actually is the term for the lower piece of the boot. I guess you could call it 'the lower'? Or 'lower piece of the boot'? It's not like it reminded someone of a wooden shoe and they slanged it the same. It's what it is: the clog.

OK, carry on.

[westoxified]

STOP.

It's a shell.
toe lug.
heel lug.
Shell.
buckles.
carbon sticker.

there is no effin clog.
unless you buy Daleboots
http://www.daleboot.com/en/products/vff-pro/

[markcjr]

I know I am just me and maybe I just had a good experience but I use these boots daily with volkl confessions and ski them hard. 16/17 carbon model. Only released once out of Wardens when I should have.

Sent from my VS987 using TGR Forums mobile app

[margotron]

I'm confused. Does OP think the Factory is "mastery" or a terrible boot?

My Lupo 130c ski great - for a boot, period, not just a touring boot.

This post confuses me

[iriponsnow]

I'm confused. Does OP think the Factory is "mastery" or a terrible boot?

My Lupo 130c ski great - for a boot, period, not just a touring boot.

This post confuses me

I (the OP) think it is a great boot, but should be marketed as an AT / Touring boot. My caution is when companies assert that he “Crossover” covers your quiver- it does not.

I’m a lighter, older guy utilizing the boot on fairly average skis & can drive it out of the clamps easily.

Buyer beware. I have the luxury of a boot closed, yet the average skier will be stuck with what they buy for several seasons.

If the shop looks at he lugs & says “we can see where you are blasting out & we’ll send it back.........”

[gregL]

I’m a lighter, older guy utilizing the boot on fairly average skis & can drive it out of the clamps easily.

And yet this guy . . .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KI96EXHoN50

. . . has no problem with them until he comes across a cat track.

[MHSP1497]

I find this thread interesting. While not a direct comparison, I’ve been riding on Lupo AX115’s all season (29 days and counting so far) and have found them to not only be lighter than my previous Lupo 110’s, but far more comfortable and stable. The only times I’ve booted out is when I should have in a fall. I’ve been riding them exclusively in alpine clamps as well. I drive them hard (former Ski Patrol) on stiff skis (ON3P’s w/ extra carbon). My wife also reports that her version (the AX110W) are also noticeably lighter than her old Salomon’s, but flex better, are more comfortable and every bit as stable as her old 4-buckle full-on Alpine boots. So, maybe it’s more of a situation where it’s just not the boot for you, but could be just fine for plenty of other folks.

[margotron]

I don't know OP, but I would hold off comment until results can be duplicated with dalbello alpine soles - assuming OP is skiing these with gripwalk soles in alpine binders. The boots suspension is fine. We have lots of threads and there are at least a half dozen reviews of apples to apples comparisons of how this boot skis in pins Vs. other tech boots. So there is an issue with release and power transfer, which OP seems to describe, and the only difference is the boot-binding interface, I suspect the soles to be involved.
If all of this is in tech binders with pins, I don't know what to say

We either need the boot skied in alpine binders with alpine soles, or the boot A/B'd on the same ski with tech and alpine binders both with the gripwalk (inserts or 2 pairs of skis).

[nickel]

No mention of testing the bindings or even if the bindings were actually grip walk compatible.

I have no experience with lupos other than carpet testing but plenty of hard charging on multiple ~1500g "130" flex touring boots with no binding interface issues on properly setup bindings. Skis that are up to 196cm and 117mm. I'm also no featherweight and like to think I charge pretty hard. Some durability issues but that's not outlandish.

Sorry to hear OP had a negative experience but I remain skeptical.

[iriponsnow]

Re - bindings: Jester 16’s & New ‘19 Tyrolia MBS clamps. Both set appropriately & tested. Both GripWalk bindings.

No use of Pins. Look, I’m a huge GripWalk fan & a proponent of comfy boots. My caution is simply that Crossover = AT & not the quiver of one boot I’d hoped. If you ski harder, this is worth considerations.

[gregL]

My caution is simply that Crossover = AT & not the quiver of one boot I’d hoped. If you ski harder, this is worth considerations.

I'm not really a quiver of one guy, but I spent the vast majority of my lift-served days this year on the Hawx Ultra XTD - no issues. Last season I spent the vast majority of my lift served days on the Tecnica Zero G Guide Pro and the Lange XT 130 Freetour, also without issue. This isn't to say they had the power of my RS130 or Mach 1 130 LV, but I had great seasons both years and came out of my bindings less than twice and I think other people could do so as well.

GripWalk rubber on the bottom is simply the current trend and a much needed aim at standardization. These boots had ISO 9523 or WTR soles on them, but all will have GripWalk next year (Hawx Ultra XTD in 2020).

[margotron]

OP do you think this is a Lupo thing, weight thing, grilamid thing or gripwalk+binding thing?

[iriponsnow]

OP do you think this is a Lupo thing, weight thing, grilamid thing or gripwalk+binding thing?

My take is that it’s a light wieght & Lupo design issue. The sole relieves the midsection & caused some flex. It may be contributions from the grilamid & GripWalk.

It’s not a binding thing. Here’s my other boots. This is a WC Plug with dual spoilers added & 7 mm Cast Systems vibram lifters. No issues with the binding in this boot - toes adjusted for DIN, forward pressures appropriately set.

[gregL]

My take is that it’s a light wieght & Lupo design issue.

My guess is it only happens with the Factory - they shaved a lot of material off to drop weight. I bet the "clog" on the Lupo Ti doesn't flex much at all.