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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by AdironRider View Post
    As unfortunate as this situation is, I find it hard to see the logic behind a victim of theft (regardless of relationship to the criminal) having to be punished for whatever crime is committed post theft.

    Are you going to prosecute any car owner who's vehicle is stolen and then a crime is committed with it? That shit happens all the fucking time. What is the Waukesha massacre was a stolen vehicle?

    What if a murderer buys a gun with stolen money? That shit also happens all the time. You holding the person who's cash was stolen responsible? Where does the line end?

    What about a person with a prescription, that has those pills stolen and then someone OD's on it. This literally every day in this country. You charging that person with murder?

    See how ridiculous those scenarios sound? Don't let your personal hatred of guns bias your thoughts here, because they are ultimately no different than punishing a gun owner who's gun gets stolen.

    No one is justifying what this kid did by arguing these points. I'm sure more detail is going to come out but the parents weren't blowing off warning signs, they were literally meeting with professionals about the kid's problem that very day. Showing up is what parents that care do IMO, but is never going to be a guarantee that it prevents a kid from committing a crime.
    OMG, so many good points here. I. mean, why even try?

    What About ism if an alien army comes to our planet and steals all the oxygen and we all die? Would we then make the Earth go to jail for its negligence.

    Thank god we have smart folks like AR to keep us straight.

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by riser3 View Post
    Could you guys please not quote AdironRider?
    oh, sorry. Does seeing his words hurt your soul? Do you hate impeccable logic?

    /sarcasm

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by MTT View Post
    Needless to say I found his post partially reasonable

    Go figure

    —over react much——
    What an endorsement. He must feel truly validated now.

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by detrusor View Post
    Handguns: specifically designed to kill people.

    Trigger lock/cable: designed to prevent accidental or unsanctioned use of firearm.

    So, parents buy kid gun designed for killing people and don’t use safe guards.

    Definitely should be charged.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecked View Post
    The talk around town is It sounds like they are going to be charged. And they should be.

    The kid posted a pic on IG a few days before the shooting showing the gun, Saying it was his, And then was like “feel free to ask me any questions about my new gun”

    He obviously had access to it regularly it seems.

    Also he was in a disciplinary meeting in school WITH his parents… and had the gun on him before he started shooting.

    Parents told him not to talk to anyone except a lawyer immediately. Pretty sure they know they are fucked.
    One more time.
    It is NOT against the law in MI to keep an unsecured firearm in a home.
    https://giffords.org/lawcenter/state...e-in-michigan/

  5. #55
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    One step further. Can you hold the gun manufacturer criminally liable for the minor's actions? Typically speaking, a third party is not liable for the criminal actions of another (with some exceptions, i.e. felony murder). I suspect the state may try, but will likely fail to criminally prosecute the parents in this instance.

    Civil liability, perhaps. Negligent entrustment is a theory, but hard to prove. The lack of physically "entrusting" the firearm to the minor will be an impediment. Hit a good case under negligent entrustment when a rental company leased a car to a 6x DUI offender. And, on top of it all, if you sue mom/dad, how deep is the pocket?
    In order to properly convert this thread to a polyasshat thread to more fully enrage the liberal left frequenting here...... (insert latest democratic blunder of your choice).

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by riser3 View Post
    I didn't use to put people on ignore for my entire duration here. The skidog incident changed that. Now I've discovered that the forum is much more readable.
    It's just pretty impossible to know who can and can't be quoted in any given thread. How are we supposed to keep up with who's got a beef with whom? If it's the obvious Trumpers then shit, might as well just stop discussing political issues at all where not everyone's all in agreement about already. i.e. echo chamber..
    Go that way really REALLY fast. If something gets in your way, TURN!

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by schindlerpiste View Post
    Here is a twist. After graduating HS, a guy who I knew (call him Kevin) moved from suburban NJ to Denver. He got hooked up with a guy who was a local [Colo.] concert promoter (call him Joe) and cocaine dealer. The story goes that one day Joe fronted Kevin a 1/4lb of product to drop off with lower level deviants. Kevin, who thought he was slick, decided to keep the blow, move back to the ice coast and sell it to his buddies or keep it for himself. Joe got wind of Kevin's plan. While enroute to NJ, Joe called Kevin's dad and said something to the effect that "your son is currently traveling from Denver to NJ with 1/4lb of my coke. You have two choices. You can either pay me $X by tomorrow morning, or I will call the police, advise them of a description of your son, his car and LP#, and that he is traveling cross-country with all that blow." Needless to say, Joe was paid, Kevin received the beating of his life and the powder was flushed.
    This is an example of "Minor criminals and a parents accountability".
    That's a sound financial decision by the father and a smart play by the dealer.

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by SKIP IN7RO View Post
    That's a sound financial decision by the father and a smart play by the dealer.
    What part of the powder was flushed did you not understand? The father was an idiot. He could have actually profited.
    Is it radix panax notoginseng? - splat

  9. #59
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    It's almost as if some folks responding here are actual real life attorneys, or at least have some sense of the United States legal structure. TNKen and AdironRider are right, but sometimes logical legal arguments are difficult to digest when it comes to emotional topics.

    Sure, there are some "common sense" statutes on-point like Colorado's HB21-1106, but such statutes would be so basic to defend against that a negligence per se claim would be near impossible to prevail on. It often boils down to such statutes being nothing more than feel-good legislation, passed with minimal teeth just so legislators can say they did something.

    In the case of the recent high school shooting in Oxford, Michigan: it sounds like the parents are shitbags. Shitbag parents raise shitbag kids. It also sounds like school administrators knew enough that should have triggered reporting to law enforcement or other action. Our legal systems don't generally punish one for the actions of another, but there may have some application of that here. Understandably so if facts come out to support early rumors.

    Some tidbits for folks interested in this case:

    Prosecutor is holding a press conference at Noon EST: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQXLsaL-1C8 ... and will likely discuss possible charges against the parents.

    Here is an alleged excerpt from the mom's online diary, so this can be made political like everything else on the news it seems: https://twitter.com/Francesca1Diasi/...30472610807810

    There is some relevant Michigan case-law on point re: parental liability. "In one standout Michigan case dating to 2000, Jamelle James was sentenced to two to 15 years in prison for involuntary manslaughter after a 6-year-old boy took a handgun that James had stored in a shoebox at the boy's home and took it to his school near Flint, fatally shooting 6-year-old Kayla Rolland of Mount Morris Township." Source.

    Here's a picture of the shitbag parents in baseball caps appearing via videoconference during their child's arraignment hearing:
    Name:  FFjVw9wWYAsZyEN.jpg
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Size:  42.4 KB

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by juanrogera View Post
    Sure, there are some "common sense" statutes on-point like Colorado's HB21-1106, but such statutes would be so basic to defend against that a negligence per se claim would be near impossible to prevail on.
    Why don't you stick to your jurisdiction. You have no conception of the legal climate in Colorado with regards to school gun violence.

    We invented that shit.
    Is it radix panax notoginseng? - splat

  11. #61
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    So it sounds like you agree that at times parents are held responsible for their children's gun crimes. Hopefully that is the case here and in future scenarios until we have gun legislation that works. No emotion needed to say that.
    j'ai des grands instants de lucididididididididi

  12. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by MakersTeleMark View Post
    This is not tough at all. We even have specific legislation addressing it in Colorado.

    Those parents should be charged, and every gun owner should applaud it.
    This.


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  13. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by TBS View Post
    One more time.
    It is NOT against the law in MI to keep an unsecured firearm in a home.
    https://giffords.org/lawcenter/state...e-in-michigan/
    Is it illegal to give a firearm to a minor? To knowingly allow them access to a firearm?

    I really haven't paid attention to this case, but sure seems like the case against the parents rests on something other than "they had an unsecured firearm at their home".
    "fuck off you asshat gaper shit for brains fucktard wanker." - Jesus Christ
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  14. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Danno View Post
    Is it illegal to give a firearm to a minor? To knowingly allow them access to a firearm?

    I really haven't paid attention to this case, but sure seems like the case against the parents rests on something other than "they had an unsecured firearm at their home".
    4 counts involuntary manslaughter:

    https://www.rawstory.com/ethan-crumbley-2655917813/

  15. #65
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    Headlines says voluntary

  16. #66
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    nm, they changed it
    Attachment 395057

  17. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by MakersTeleMark View Post
    What part of the powder was flushed did you not understand? The father was an idiot. He could have actually profited.
    Right? Dad now had a contact for a supplier and his son to use a mule bitch.

  18. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by MakersTeleMark View Post
    Why don't you stick to your jurisdiction. You have no conception of the legal climate in Colorado with regards to school gun violence.

    We invented that shit.
    You're probably right. Despite being a real-life attorney, I only really practice when my wife's boyfriend lets me. HB21-1106 was hotly debated. The intent behind the bill is nice, and should be applauded by most all responsible gun owners, but being passed just this year it's not yet clear whether it will make a meaningful difference. Most statutes of this sort can be logically defended against in most circumstance absent blatant mis/malfeasance.

    Quote Originally Posted by ml242 View Post
    So it sounds like you agree that at times parents are held responsible for their children's gun crimes. Hopefully that is the case here and in future scenarios until we have gun legislation that works. No emotion needed to say that.
    Absolutely if the facts support that conclusion, which in the Oxford HS shooting case they very well might. Parents should at times certainly be held at least partially liable for the actions of their children. Unfortunately, we have little gun legislation that actually works in this country, but I'm hopeful we're heading in that direction.

    Seeing the parents here being charged with involuntary manslaughter sounds provable based on the facts as I understand them. Good on the prosecutor for not over-reaching.

  19. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by MakersTeleMark View Post
    What part of the powder was flushed did you not understand? The father was an idiot. He could have actually profited.
    Keep in mind the untold numbers of strippers that could’ve been banged that weren’t.

    Truly tragic, a cautionary tale for the ages.


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  20. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by schindlerpiste View Post
    Here is a twist. After graduating HS, a guy who I knew (call him Kevin) moved from suburban NJ to Denver. He got hooked up with a guy who was a local [Colo.] concert promoter (call him Joe) and cocaine dealer. The story goes that one day Joe fronted Kevin a 1/4lb of product to drop off with lower level deviants. Kevin, who thought he was slick, decided to keep the blow, move back to the ice coast and sell it to his buddies or keep it for himself. Joe got wind of Kevin's plan. While enroute to NJ, Joe called Kevin's dad and said something to the effect that "your son is currently traveling from Denver to NJ with 1/4lb of my coke. You have two choices. You can either pay me $X by tomorrow morning, or I will call the police, advise them of a description of your son, his car and LP#, and that he is traveling cross-country with all that blow." Needless to say, Joe was paid, Kevin received the beating of his life and the powder was flushed.
    This is an example of "Minor criminals and a parents accountability".
    Bullshit. You didn’t learn your lesson from telling fibs about poor people did you?

  21. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by juanrogera View Post

    Seeing the parents here being charged with involuntary manslaughter sounds provable based on the facts as I understand them. Good on the prosecutor for not over-reaching.
    Betting that is about as far as they could reach. Wonder if they will bring the Bing to prosecute?
    In order to properly convert this thread to a polyasshat thread to more fully enrage the liberal left frequenting here...... (insert latest democratic blunder of your choice).

  22. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcphee View Post
    Bullshit. You didn’t learn your lesson from telling fibs about poor people did you?
    You just can't believe my most excellent entertaining stories.
    “A society that puts equality before freedom will get neither. A society that puts freedom before equality will get a high degree of both.”
    ― Milton Friedman

  23. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by schindlerpiste View Post
    Here is a twist. After graduating HS, a guy who I knew (call him Kevin) moved from suburban NJ to Denver. He got hooked up with a guy who was a local [Colo.] concert promoter (call him Joe) and cocaine dealer. The story goes that one day Joe fronted Kevin a 1/4lb of product to drop off with lower level deviants. Kevin, who thought he was slick, decided to keep the blow, move back to the ice coast and sell it to his buddies or keep it for himself. Joe got wind of Kevin's plan. While enroute to NJ, Joe called Kevin's dad and said something to the effect that "your son is currently traveling from Denver to NJ with 1/4lb of my coke. You have two choices. You can either pay me $X by tomorrow morning, or I will call the police, advise them of a description of your son, his car and LP#, and that he is traveling cross-country with all that blow." Needless to say, Joe was paid, Kevin received the beating of his life and the powder was flushed.
    This is an example of "Minor criminals and a parents accountability".
    Are you Steve?
    Go that way really REALLY fast. If something gets in your way, TURN!

  24. #74
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    The mother of the Michigan school shooting suspect, Ethan Crumbley, texted her son "don't do it" when news of the active shooter situation went public, Oakland County Prosecutor Karen McDonald said at a press conference on Friday.

    Jennifer Crumbley, who met with school officials after teachers reported concerns regarding her 15-year-old son's behavior just hours earlier, texted her son immediately on hearing the news, McDonald said.

    The prosecutor said Jennifer Crumbley texted her son at 1:22 p.m. and at 1:37 p.m his father, James Crumbley, called 911 to report that his gun was missing. He told the operator that his son may have been the active shooter.

    Concerns over Crumbley's behavior were first reported on Monday after "a teacher in the classroom where he was a student saw and heard something that she felt was concerning," Oakland County Sheriff Michael Bouchard said on CNN's "New Day."
    Yeah, innocent as hell
    I have been in this State for 30 years and I am willing to admit that I am part of the problem.

    "Happiest years of my life were earning < $8.00 and hour, collecting unemployment every spring and fall, no car, no debt and no responsibilities. 1984-1990 Park City UT"

  25. #75
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    My modest proposal:
    Kid gets the death sentence, and gets shot with his own gun in front of the parents.
    Parents are then sentenced to cleaning up blood at every us school shooting for the rest of their lives.


    Is that too much to ask?
    Forum Cross Pollinator, gratuitously strident

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