Crampon and ice axe question

[MultiVerse]

Depending on terrain, the Tech Crampon 250 might be the only crampon a skier needs but someone new to spring touring probably wants to start out with full length just to be sure.

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[Meadow Skipper]

Short axes are lighter, easier to pack and unpack, and easier to use on steep terrain. I can see having a longer one to use on roped glacier travel.

Zig zag zion's breakdown of alu vs. steel in the Tetons is perfect.

[GeezerSteve]

Good discussion. As Norse says, an 80cm axe is much better for arresting (team or solo) than a 55cm axe. OTOH, a 55cm axe is better for self belay plunging on moderately steep and swinging on firm. (And, for non-skiing trips, when on pack it's less likely to hang up on a brushy approach, an issue on the WA Cascade routes).

There's no magic length. We have axes ranging from 50cm (Camp Nanotech) to 75cm (several) and in between (65cm Grivel Air Tech). We use all of them. The Air Tech probably gets used most because Honey takes it on all trips and I take it on some trips.

Bent shafts are nice for swinging but arrest on a straight shaft axe is a bit more natural. IMO, bent shafts make sense only for shorter axes (60cm or shorter).

Anyway, this thread is about gearing up to get into general ski mountaineering, so arresting is #1 priority, although you'll likely want something for extended self belay plunging when booting up moderately steep stuff, which is a PITA with an axe that is too long. In view of that, I'll double down on my suggestion that a 70-75cm general mountaineering straight shaft axe is the place to start. If and when you get into more technical routes, supplement with a 55-60cm bent shaft axe.

And practice arresting from all falling positions until it becomes second nature -- that includes falling backwards and arresting while screaming downhill headfirst on your back. Practice with and without crampons. Broken ankles happen.

[anotherVTskibum]

My two cents on axes and length:

I currently own a pair of 65cm, general-use axes (BD Raven and a similar Camp axe). I picked up the Camp because I thought it was going to be a bit lighter, and occasionally it's nice to have one for each hand. I've since acquired a whippet and haven't actually used both axes at once, although it's rather nice to have a spare for visiting friends. Before I purchased the Raven, I had a 45cm all-aluminum Camp axe. I found that to be way too short for general use; it's fine on truly steep slopes, but even steep slopes often flatten out at some point on the climb, and I found the short length disconcerting on those slightly flatter portions of the climb. I did love the fact that the thing weighed next to nothing and used it as a "I don't think I need an axe, but I'm going to ski some steep stuff and it would probably be good to have one just in case my plans go pear-shaped" tool until I goofed up on the backpack attachment and dropped it on an approach.

Also, even a less-than-ideal axe beats the hell out of no axe on a steep bootpack (and triply so for snowboarders).

FWIW, I'm 5'9", and while I've spent a fair amount of time playing in the mountains and feel comfortable claiming to know the basics of mountain travel, I'm not a climber nor a guide, so my advice may suck.

[I've seen black diamonds!]

I'd go short on the axe. For common ski mountaineering scenarios outside of glaciated terrain (at least the ones I've typically put myself in) self arrest can be pretty unrealistic. If it is steep enough to put your skis on your back, it is probably too steep to stop a fall outside the moment during which the fall begins. If you're booting up a couloir and you slip, you have only a split second to avert disaster. Better to stop yourself slipping in the first place. For this a short axe is better.

This discussion really comes down to terrain. If you expect to be walking on 30 degree slopes with crampons, by all means get the longer axe. But it the three very different regions where I've spent a fair amount of time ski mountaineering this sort of travel has been occasional enough that advantage of longer axe is seldom worth the associated disadvantages. But you'll probably get the best advice from people who've spent a lot of time in the mountains near you.

I do, however, think that two axes are pretty darn nice to have in some scenarios. I also like the one whippet - one axe approach, but for more than a short stretch at or above 50 degrees, having 4WD is pretty sweet, especially with lighter axes that have sliding pommels that allows for comfortable daggering.

[auvgeek]

I'd go short on the axe. For common ski mountaineering scenarios outside of glaciated terrain (at least the ones I've typically put myself in) self arrest can be pretty unrealistic. If it is steep enough to put your skis on your back, it is probably too steep to stop a fall outside the moment during which the fall begins. If you're booting up a couloir and you slip, you have only a split second to avert disaster. Better to stop yourself slipping in the first place. For this a short axe is better.

This discussion really comes down to terrain. If you expect to be walking on 30 degree slopes with crampons, by all means get the longer axe. But it the three very different regions where I've spent a fair amount of time ski mountaineering this sort of travel has been occasional enough that advantage of longer axe is seldom worth the associated disadvantages. But you'll probably get the best advice from people who've spent a lot of time in the mountains near you.

I do, however, think that two axes are pretty darn nice to have in some scenarios. I also like the one whippet - one axe approach, but for more than a short stretch at or above 50 degrees, having 4WD is pretty sweet, especially with lighter axes that have sliding pommels that allows for comfortable daggering.

Exactly my thoughts.

And on less steep slopes, I often use one ski pole for balance.

[hafjell]

Can’t add much except a reminder that booting up steeps with your hands above you ears is very tiring. Short works better on steeps.

Edit to add: shorter is less tiring and likely faster.

Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

[GeezerSteve]

If it is steep enough to put your skis on your back, it is probably too steep to stop a fall outside the moment during which the fall begins. If you're booting up a couloir and you slip, you have only a split second to avert disaster.

I gotta push back on this. First, "split second" is an exaggeration and IMO not helpful. Yeah, slope angle is a factor in the ability to arrest, but often a bigger factor is snow condition, i.e., whether you can get adequate purchase with an axe. I've arrested and had people in my party arrest on some pretty steep stuff ALTHOUGH that happened only because arrest was a second-nature reflexive action resulting from lots of practice, years of experience and being aware of the conditions. Sure, on steep firm slopes you gotta arrest ASAP or you can accelerate to a point where arrest might not happen, BUT often below a steep slope there's a lower angle runout hundreds of vert feet below, and cliffs or other hazards below the lower angle slope (a circumstance quite common in the North Cascades). More than once I've saved my own life or seen someone in my party save their life arresting after a slip on 40+ degree slopes: Sometimes the arrest happened within 3-4 seconds, and sometimes the arrest is successful happens hundreds of verts below the point of the slip.

Rope travel is a somewhat different equation. If your rope partner falls, and you're paying attention, you should have sufficient time to get into a secure arrest position (i.e., axe across body, pick sunk, toes dug) and a 75cm axe is better for that than a 55cm axe.

It is absolutely essential for safe travel on steep snow to be aware of the runout (or lack thereof) below you. Plug that information into your brain.

Better to stop yourself slipping in the first place.

Yes, of course. Nobody would argue against that. But slips do happen and an axe or boot sometimes blows out. Arresting is an ice axe's primary purpose for most general mountain travel.

For this a short axe is better.

Sometimes a short axe is better, e.g., firm conditions, but sometimes a long axe is better, e.g., relatively softer snow, where a deeper plunge provides more purchase. I've seen a 55cm sunken shaft blow out when a 75cm shaft probably would have held steady. Also, a longer axe is often better for team belaying than a shorter axe.

[skiitsbetter]

55cm has suited me for skiing (booting steep couloirs/faces) but I wish that I had something with a proper spike rather than the 45degree cut shaft which is harder to plunge in firm surfaces. I'm not ice climbing in my lines so a raven has been sufficient. Aluminum crampons are good for anything you intend on skiing, though the Grivel Haute route is an awesome combination if you have boots with a short toe welt (they have short front points).

When would you be using a BD venom type axe and you wouldn't rather have a petzl quark type axe?

[truax]

Largely to reiterate *some* of the above:

Most modern ski mountaineers these days are using shorter, 50ish cm tools - both technical and non-technical tools. Not much more than 60cm unless they're being used in piolet canne in glacial travel. Some taller folks will prefer a tool that is proportionally a bit longer. Personally, if I'm in lower angle but consequential, non-glaciated terrain, I'm using one pole and a short tool, or a whippet and a pole. My four main non technical tools over the last 10+ years have been the BD Raven Ultra, CAMP Corsa/Corsa Nanotech, and the recent Petzl Ride.

As for steeper terrain (where I find such a tool to be much more imperative, outside of glaciated terrain of course), plunging a 50cm tool is much more efficient and safe than plunging a 70cm tool. I've been using a 50cm tool of some sort like this for the last decade without issue or any hesitation to continue with such. Give it a try sometime if you can. Get yourself on some 40º+ slope and plunge away with a traditional 75cm tool. Get back to me You'll be raising that bitch at full arm extension over and over, likely cursing the fool who suggested that you acquire said glorified trekking pole. There's a time and place for such, and it is not technical ski mountaineering.

And to reiterate the crampon dilemma, some of the recent LW standards in ski mountaineering are the Petzl Leopard (all AL), Petzl Irvis Hybrid (steel toe, AL heel), CAMP Tour Nanotech (all steel) and the tried/true Grivel Haute Route (steel toe, AL heel). I'm personally a huge fan of Grivel crampons, and their steel is known as some of the best on the market. I've got a few partners that are very pleased with those new Petzl joints too.

Regardless, AL toes will be fine until they aren't. So per the group discussion, steel toes or the whole shebang will likely be nicer if you plan on using them for mixed terrain. Not to mention the occasional water ice bulge. I've owned and used pure AL pons for many ski mountaineering objectives and while they work for the intended purpose, I wouldn't get them as my only pair. Also, anti-balling plates can be your friend. Nothing like booting up a don't fall couloir and having to knock balled snow off your boots with every step to avoid killing yourself. Been there. Not the most ideal. The key is to try them on and fit them properly to your boot before using them. May seem obvious, but I've seen plenty of folks blow this most important move.

Anyway...elbows and assholes, you know the deal. Hopefully some of it helps. Find what works for you and go get out in one of the best ranges in the lower 48! Blame it on the Tetons, I know I do.

[auvgeek]

When would you be using a BD venom type axe and you wouldn't rather have a petzl quark type axe?

Well, I haven't used the Venom specifically but I really like the newer Petzl Sum'Tec. Reviews says it climbs ice well enough (no personal experience yet) but still plunges fine if you move the pommel/trigrest up the shaft. I would think it makes more sense for 95% of ski mountaineers than something like the Quark or Grivel North Machine.

Here's a piece Dane wrote about it: http://coldthistle.blogspot.com/2017...new-tools.html

[hutash]

One of the biggest advantages of Al crampons is that being light you tend to throw them in your pack when you might leave heavy steel 'pons at home. They are nice to have when the unexpected boiler plate is encountered. Same is likely true for Al axes, but there I prefer the slight weight penalty of a steel head, I just carry a 50mm, so little weight and very packable.

On a different note, I just got a pair of CAMP-USA Race 290's. super light, but I swapped out the dyneema connector for he Al bars. While I am willing to compromise, I have limits, and the dyneema was just too sloppy for my tastes. I suspect the same with Leopards. The packability was nice, though. I have no intention of serious mountaineering with these, just strolling up frozen volcanoes while waiting for the corn to thaw.

[GeezerSteve]

Most modern ski mountaineers these days are using shorter, 50ish cm tools - both technical and non-technical tools. Not much more than 60cm. . . .

Tools and axes are different things. Tools (for technical terrain) are always short. Axes are usually >60cm. Re the latter, I almost always see skiers with >65-75cm general mountaineering axes around here unless they are doing a technical climbing route that requires tools. Maybe that's because much of the ski mountaineering in the WA and OR Cascades includes glacier travel and/or because many, maybe most, PNW ski tourists also do basic mountaineering routes, including but not limited to glacier routes, on foot later season. As the CC thread notes, there seem to be more people carrying short ice tools for non-technical routes, mostly as a fashion statement AFAICT. I get a chuckle when I see a guy carrying a bent shaft reverse curve tool on a walkup route.

I agree (and acknowledged in a prior post) that extended plunging a 50cm tool is easier than with a 75cm axe (duh), but at the cost of being less effective for some other uses. Use the best tool for the route.

[hutash]

Use the best tool for the route.

This, duh.

The other question is which is the best single tool for the widest variety of conditions...the one axe quiver so to speak?

Personally, I had (until they melted) a 50mm axe for touring, a 75 mm axe for general mountaineering, and a set of tools for technical ice. Being in southern CA, I have only replaced my 50mm axe, and am not in a rush to get others since I do little glacier travel, and at my age can't really justify replacing ice tools.

As for 'pons, a good pair of steel 12 points for all purpose use, (maybe an Al set if touring a lot.) Again, I doubt I will replace my water ice specific 'pons. Steel, general purpose ones are adequate for much alpine ice, and passable for easy water ice.

[auvgeek]

The other question is which is the best single tool for the widest variety of conditions...the one axe quiver so to speak?

IMHO, and I've probably beaten it to death in this thread, but the new Petzl Sum'Tec: 16 oz, 55 cm length, steel spike for plunging (or umbilical attachment), slight shaft curve, adjustable trigrest (near bottom for leashless climbing or near head for plunging), changeable picks, pick weights, available in hammer, micro hammer, or adze, etc. Or maybe the Grivel Jorasses 2.0 in a 66 cm, which seems somewhat similar -- longer but without the changeable picks/pick weights or hammer option. (No personal experience with the Grivel products, except playing with them in a shop recently)

[truax]

I almost always see skiers with >65-75cm general mountaineering axes around here unless they are doing a technical climbing route that requires tools. Maybe that's because much of the ski mountaineering in the WA and OR Cascades includes glacier travel and/or because many, maybe most, PNW ski tourists also do basic mountaineering routes, including but not limited to glacier routes, on foot later season...Use the best tool for the route.

This. ^ On all counts. ^

I'm in MT and ski/mountaineer largely in MT/WY. I've been known to go to the occasional volcano but often stay closer to my (largely) non-glaciated home. Technical and steep terrain without much risk of crevasse fall is my current MO when using this type of equipment. So shorter tools, and less *axe* use for me. YMMV