The Tragedy of Suburbia

[doebedoe]

..., but the numbers don’t lie. People are leaving cities. Heck even San Francisco had 30-40k residents move out.

Yes and no. You're right in the idea that absolute populations are declining in many hot urban places right now. It doesn't follow that suburban places are preferred or more in demand than urban ones.

The reason for population decline in these places, despite an increase in housing units and low vacancy rates, is because the people who are choosing to/can afford to live in city centers are more affluent than the people they are replacing, have smaller family sizes, and typically occupy much more sq ft per person.

[Ottime]

^^^^^that is accurate.

I grew up in the suburbs twenty miles from Albany. As far as developments go, it was pretty nice with two large ravines to play in on either side of my neighborhood. We could walk to a community center and pool, and ride bikes to a nearby actual old town center, and a general store.

But for everything else, it was pack into the car and drive. School, groceries, bank, and any errand at all. There were still a few old town centers around, but it was mostly a series of developments and malls. Luckily, there was still a fair amount of green space to trail bike or XC ski. And we were close to the Mohawk and Hudson and 25 minutes from a small ski hill. Ultimately, I knew I wanted to get out.

Went to school in NYC and studied Urban Design. Actually studied the suburbs a bit and the roll of the automobile in how we developed land. The suburbs could not exist without the car. These are not tough and resilient rural folk living in these places.

I loved living in the city as a poor student. Knew I could not afford to live there as an adult and maintain the life style I wanted. Hell, having the resources to get out of the city is a big leap.

Now I live in a small coastal town. The city is about 55K and the county just over a 100K. I can bike out my door and be to world class MTB in two miles. Surf is a close as a mile away. I walk to get groceries, dry cleaning, small hardware items, surf shop and most minor errands. We can walk to over twenty eateries and coffee joints. We are about 1.5 miles from downtown and will often walk or bike (except on market day, as I’ve not yet figured out how to carry my produce). We can walk to a small green space and are less than two miles (uphill) from a large green space. We often don’t get into our car on the weekend we are in town.

I really like it here. Not urban. Not rural. Not suburban. Just a small city. Sure, housing is pretty pricey, but I’ve found that it is worth it. And honestly, I think we come out even when we pay less in gas, and live in a place with tons of free entertainment.

The only issue I have is it lacks diversity. We are mostly white and Latino. The University does bring in some diversity, but many of them are only here for two years and don’t bother becoming part of the community.

That, and having to drive through the BA to get to the snow. And the 4 hours in the car.

[doebedoe]

If we ever get to the dream of tele-commutting becoming a more common practice, I think small towns like the ones Ottime lives in will become much more in demand. There are a lot of folks that want a urban living (walkability, bikeability, sense of community) without big city living. And it's not just a generational thing, I hear the same thing talking to my generation (millennials) and my parents generation (boomers).

FWIW / My biases: I read Kunstler's book Geography of Nowhere about 17 or 18 years ago. I then got a few degrees in geography (historic urban geography) before dropping out of my phd in the same. I grew up in the country (15 min from a town of 1200). Then lived in a few suburbs. Then lived in big cities (Chicago, Minneapolis, Amsterdamn) and small cities (Cambridge UK) before moving to Denver.

[hatchgreenchile]

This thread needs Hugh Conway so bad.

Word, and this thread is giving him too many layups!

All I can say is that there are pros and cons to everything. I grew up in rural country, lived in an eastern city downtown and now live in the 'burbs (we have a cute little "old town" though!) Wife wouldn't mind living right off Tennyson, I wouldn't mind some dirt outside Montrose, but good old Suburbia is a tolerable balance.

[Buster Highmen]

For old folks I've long thought that access to services (health care in particular), cultural options (sports, theatre, whatever) and a reduced need to drive would continue to contribute to urbanization. How do you feel, and pardon my slanted rhetoric here please, but how do you feel, Garth, about being an old fuck in the middle of nowhere who has to drive to do or get anything? What made you feel tht that's a better option than a condo with a store on the corner, a movie theatre on the next block and a hospital a few blocks further down? I'm not trying to say you're wrong necessarily but to me it doesn't add up to sensible.

Speaking as an old fuck that put down a stake in a small town in SW Colorado, I found the walkability of grocery, bars, restaurants (though few) and coffee the key thing. So far health isn't an issue and when it becomes one I'll have to re-evaluate. Personally I care fuck all about spectating sports and am there for the skiing, a 20 minute drive.

Our trajectory followed leaving an old suburb (that is now considered urban) for outskirts where there's no resources, no community and driving all the time, but being closer to work when I did work. We did it for reasons of affordability and an adventure. I like not being seen and not having to repeatedly tell my neighbors that they can't use our backyard ( get off my lawn!). On the other hand, getting shot at and dealing with the cops and pinhead neighbors got exhausting too.

Yeah, Kunstler reiterates the obvious about what Pete Seeger noted in 'Little boxes all the same'. Which is great if one is set financially or isn't somewhat socially claustrophobic.

Cities are fucking expensive and with America's financial gradient currently tipped past the excesses of 1929, it's no surprise the great unwashed are sliding off into more remote places. What's been weird is seeing the malls deteriorate into whited windows and the rise of homelessness in the suburbs.

As a culture, Americas concern for each other sure seems to be on a massive skydive and the obviousness of that when it comes to affordable housing approaches that of healthcare.

[dunfree]

Now I live in a small coastal town. The city is about 55K and the county just over a 100K.

Santa cruz county has more like 275k+ residents and has been pretty much solely auto focused since 1940 when highway 17 opened and the direct rail line over the mountains closed. There are plenty of vintages of suburban planned developments within the county. Santa Cruz has topped the list of least affordable countys in the nation for decades, mostly because it's been a bedroom commuter area for the booming bay area for decades. Housings so shitty I know someone who was paying a couple hundred bucks a month to sleep in their own car in someone elses driveway.

Nice area, but it's in some ways tops of the communitys I'd short if you think telecommutings going to takeover. There are only so many people who can pay $700k for a 936square foot home in a "cute town"

[BoulderBreak]

II can't walk anywhere and can't ride my bike out my door safely because everything is made for cars. The closest sidewalk is 2 miles away, the closest street light is 2 miles away, the closest bus stop is almost 2 miles away and there is such limited parking at the train stations that unless you're there by 6:30am there's no place to park so you have to drive everywhere all the time.

This is the underlying issue, heavily subsidized (or just with not immediately obvious costs) widely available private auto transport enables large scale suburban sprawl. And that model is reaching a breaking point, at least near the popular urban areas. The infrastructure, parking, freeways are all spaces where no community can be built, and honestly nothing but driving can ever happen.

If you want to start a better suburbia, get the cars to the outside of the city area and make them nonessential for daily life. Instead of bending over backwards to make sure everyone has a road that leads directly to their own drive way and directly to their garage use that space for community, parks, open areas, etc. Give a little, get a lot.

[old goat]

So much of what makes suburbs unpleasant is the result of deliberate planning decisions and zoning--required densities, wide streets, separation of residential and commercial. And a lot of those decisions are resident driven. In both Truckee and Sacramento residents have fought high density development tooth and nail. Every time a development was proposed they wanted fewer units on the same land. They still do to some extent although at least some people finally seem to be realizing the virtues of high density as the people who protested it can no longer afford to live there, or their kids can't.

Friend of mine is an architect/developer of the small is beautiful school who does infill projects in Sacto. He gave a talk in Nevada City--where old hippies go to die-- on the virtues of density and was about run out of town on a rail by all the locals with their multi-acre pot farmsin the surrounding countryside. People claim to be environmentalists but don't see the connection between global warming and having to drive their old pickup 30 minutes for groceries or for anything else except the weed they grow.

[GeezerSteve]

FTR, the block on which I lived in West Seattle is, and for 20+ years has been, mapped as "urban," part of a dumbbell-shaped urban zone with Admiral Junction on the N end and The Junction on the S end. 75%+ of the population in that zone lives in dense multi-family dwellings. It has become even more densely populated in the past 5 years with the construction of thousands of apartment units. That dumbbell is now as densely populated and urbanized as the the Broadway corridor on Capitol Hill. (Those of you have haven't been in The Junction and Admiral Junction the past 2 years wouldn't know that.) A similar pattern as emerged in the most densely populated part of Ballard.

Note that my first post specifically referred to The Junction and Admiral Junction. Yeah, parts of West Seattle are duly classified as suburban. Duh

I'm not bent on anything, just calling my old neighborhood what the land use experts have deemed it for nearly 2 decades: urban.

[::: :::]

So much of what makes suburbs unpleasant is the result of deliberate planning decisions and zoning--required densities, wide streets, separation of residential and commercial. And a lot of those decisions are resident driven. In both Truckee and Sacramento residents have fought high density development tooth and nail. Every time a development was proposed they wanted fewer units on the same land. They still do to some extent although at least some people finally seem to be realizing the virtues of high density as the people who protested it can no longer afford to live there, or their kids can't.

Friend of mine is an architect/developer of the small is beautiful school who does infill projects in Sacto. He gave a talk in Nevada City--where old hippies go to die-- on the virtues of density and was about run out of town on a rail by all the locals with their multi-acre pot farmsin the surrounding countryside. People claim to be environmentalists but don't see the connection between global warming and having to drive their old pickup 30 minutes for groceries or for anything else except the weed they grow.

Folks in the west look around and wonder why density is needed. We've got all this space.

I worked on a project for the University of Wyoming a few years back. You should have seen the building committee's faces when we suggested multistory structures.

"Why would you do that?!?"


OTOH, places like Seattle or SF are bound in by water and have grown vertically in response.

[SumJongGuy]

Living in suburbia will be pretty bitchin when we have supersonic autonomous flying cars with 2K mile range. Add in better property sharing networks so everyone can pretty much live wherever they want whenever they want.

[Meadow Skipper]

Now I live in a small coastal town. ... Sure, housing is pretty pricey, but I’ve found that it is worth it.

No shit to what I bolded above:
Santa Cruz County median home price $828,000 in December.

I've been holding back on recommending small, expensive, but well-located and well-appointed cities like the one I live in and like Ottime's, especially in light of us having already been called out for confirmation bias, because it can be hard to buy a place with most people's income. But it's a sweet deal if you can make the nut.

[zion zig zag]

So, I'm unsure if I'm urban or suburban. What's the delineation?

[Bobby Stainless]

highlands ranch would be a great case study

it took over 30 years to fully develop, it's the largest master planned community in the country, it's actually pretty dense too, it's sprawling, but I imagine if someone looked up the density it's pretty high compared to most suburban places
compare the density of highlands ranch to the development in northern colorado ie north of denver and that is nothing more than massive massive sprawl in a few years it could be any shit hole in america
at least i'll give props to highlands ranch in some respects

I liked living there. Extreme convenience.

[glademaster]

If CurmudgeonlySteve lives in your neighborhood, it isn't suburban.

Ellensburg will be suburban in about 5 years, so I guess you better hope you pop your clogs before then, or you'll have to let us know how that crow tastes.

[KQ]

I grew up in the suburbs complete with a barn, pasture and horses but then the city limits were moved and the city came to us.

[BCMtnHound]

I live in the urban centre of a community of ~2000. I would move out to the suburbs, but the wife enjoys seeing when the neighbour kids are playing down the street (so she can entice them to child mind) & doesn't want to commute an extra 5km to work (cause the 2km to work now pushes the 5 min out the door to work envelope). Property values are not in line with the local median income though. We all have to make sacrifices.

[4matic]

So, I'm unsure if I'm urban or suburban. What's the delineation?

How often can you get street parking in front of your house. I’d say 80-90% or more is suburbia.

[Ted Striker]

Or simply, do you have a driveway?

[doebedoe]

How often can you get street parking in front of your house. I’d say 80-90% or more is suburbia.

Or simply, do you have a driveway?

There are plenty of plenty of places in urban North America where you can both have a driveway (maybe in an alley) and get parking in front of your house regularly that most would qualify as urban. Still walkable, still bikeable, good transit.

It's why people who study this for a living got into all kinds of definitional debates for a half-century; especially because what is "suburban" in say, the UK, is nothing like what is "suburban" in SW US.

In short, a neighborhood or set of houses may have a suburban development pattern not being suburbia. And you will find many dense areas in suburbs that are distinctly urban in form.

[Ottime]

Santa cruz county has more like 275k+ residents and has been pretty much solely auto focused since 1940 when highway 17 opened and the direct rail line over the mountains closed. There are plenty of vintages of suburban planned developments within the county. Santa Cruz has topped the list of least affordable countys in the nation for decades, mostly because it's been a bedroom commuter area for the booming bay area for decades. Housings so shitty I know someone who was paying a couple hundred bucks a month to sleep in their own car in someone elses driveway.

Nice area, but it's in some ways tops of the communitys I'd short if you think telecommutings going to takeover. There are only so many people who can pay $700k for a 936square foot home in a "cute town"

Man, you make it sound tough here.

All that I know is I moved here with no money twenty years ago and am now in a good position on my mortgages. I work in the food industry and my wife is a high school teacher. Not exactly wealth making jobs. One of has commuted over 17 over the past 12 years. Rail would be much nicer. Was not trying to claim I live in a self sustained city.

What I like about where I live, and what I mean by that is my specific neighborhood, is how walkable it is. There are many other things about the city and region I like, but the walkable part is really important to me. We know our neighbors. And run into familiar faces every week at the Farmer’s Market, or while grabbing BBQ, or a beer around the corner. It is not a small place, but it has community. At least for us. Not for everyone.

We don’t need a big house. We like being outdoors and can be most days here. We just need a garage to store our toys.

I have family just south of DC. They are in a planned neighborhood. Separated from other planned neighborhoods by six lanes of traffic. They need to get in a car for everything and the only real green spaces are baseball diamonds. Everything is a chain store. I could not live like that.

Yes, housing here is expensive, but I don’t pay a lot for fresh organic vegetables. I don’t pay to surf or bike and both are minutes from my house. I don’t pay for hikes in the redwoods. Or the parks. I don’t pay for all the things my sister pays for her kids to do: jump-o-Rama’s, pool clubs, movies, shopping at the mall, eating at Rubie, etc.

If I was really wealthy, I’d still likely stay here. But I’d be tempted to move back to a big city. Maybe even London or Paris and just fly to the Alps on a private jet each weekend.

Only problem with living here is we also like to travel. And that cost money as well. But we’ve always been budget people. Plan and save. Eat tofu and fly some where once in a while.

[Bobby Stainless]

If I'm reading this correctly, you're saying that Steve used to live in a cookie-cutter suburban feeder town and now lives in an exurb which is morphing into a more traditional suburb.

We should find Steves FB page... And his wife's.

[Bobby Stainless]

My bad. You just did that for me.

Carry on.

[iceman]

I can't remember who it was but somebody who really didn't like Steve called him out by first and last name a couple/few years ago so I looked him up for the fuck of it. It wasn't too exciting really. I don't even remember his last name now, it was that memorable.

[adrenalated]

How often can you get street parking in front of your house. I’d say 80-90% or more is suburbia.

I can park right in front of my house 100% of the time but East Colfax would never be mistaken for a suburb.