Race boots- Why so narrow?

**cpj.slc** · 04-19-2018, 12:17 PM

What is the thinking behind a last of 92MM (for plug boots) up to 98MM for off the shelf race boots. My boot fitter tells me I have a very normal foot, but I need a boot around 100MM to be comfortable.

Do WC racers just deal with pain, or is it expected that they will just need major boot work done and the boot makers think it is easier to stretch/grind a boot than make it smaller?

Just a random thought as the season winds down.

**XXX-er** · 04-19-2018, 12:32 PM

they expect you to blow them out

**mntlion** · 04-19-2018, 12:33 PM

they just make them wider if needed. its easy to get 5-10mm PER SIDE out of a boot.

also the liner is a lot thinner, so a 95mm boot, with a thin liner can feel similar to a 100mm with a stock liner

**neufox47** · 04-19-2018, 12:53 PM

No one skis a plug boot without getting work done to it. It is basically a blank to be custom fit to a foot.

**hutash** · 04-19-2018, 08:59 PM

Less wind resistance, it is why they go so fast.

**Skidog** · 04-19-2018, 10:40 PM

Originally Posted by hutash

Less wind resistance, it is why they go so fast.

I heard that's only if they're red.

Get the red ones

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**margotron** · 04-20-2018, 01:04 AM

Originally Posted by neufox47

No one skis a plug boot without getting work done to it. It is basically a blank to be custom fit to a foot.

this. very thick plastic all around. can be punched / shaved to fit your exact foot. as stated, literlaly no one buys a plug and just skis it. it is the closest to getting a true 'custom' boot for your foot as you can. this is ignoring the shell heat molding shenanigans i don't trust. would rather a professional crasftsman carve a boot like a sculptor to match my foot*

*i dont ski plugs however and never have so ignore me

**Banh Mi** · 04-20-2018, 09:03 AM

I have a 28.5 Lange ZB that I fit into with no customization whatsoever.. in fact, I had to put a larger footbed into it to take up some top to bottom volume.

I have kangaroo feet

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**cpj.slc** · 04-20-2018, 03:43 PM

I love how any random question I have can be answered here.

Thanks guys!

**waxman** · 04-28-2018, 11:14 AM

Originally Posted by Betelgeuse

I have a 28.5 Lange ZB that I fit into with no customization whatsoever.. in fact, I had to put a larger footbed into it to take up some top to bottom volume.

I have kangaroo feet

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arguably if you're taking up volume you bought the boot too big

**Banh Mi** · 04-28-2018, 12:02 PM

Originally Posted by waxman

arguably if you're taking up volume you bought the boot too big

Yup. My measured size is 29, but have always found 28.5s way too big. Even the 28 plug is still a little big! Funny how many bootfitters recommend I go with the big 28, and fill up space from the get go. What a joke, and I don’t trust most fitters anymore. I basically just find the right boot myself now, and go to whomever is willing to work to get me into the 27.5..Been there, done that with a too big boot. Too many times.

I have a 27.5 ZB plug too, which needs stretching, but it’s minor. My feet are narrow, with no hot spots.

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**auvgeek** · 04-28-2018, 12:10 PM

The stock ZB liner is very low volume, lower volume than the ZipFit Gara. If your ankles are as skinny as the rest of your foot, you might consider a Zip Fit.

**Banh Mi** · 04-28-2018, 01:11 PM

Zipfit is definitely on my list. What about those nordica foam liners?

Are the intuition plug liners much stiffer than regular intuition liners?

Where I am at for next season, is experimenting with taking up volume in the 28.5 plug, and making space in the 27.5.

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**waxman** · 04-28-2018, 03:25 PM

We sell a fair bit of Intuition (usually as a solution for cold feet, people are convinced they are warmer) I don't think any Intuition would considered "stiff".
If you need volume taken up go foam or zip fit.

**auvgeek** · 04-28-2018, 04:22 PM

The problem with intuitions is the foam in the lower isn't particularly stiff, which equates to poor power transmission. And they're just not very low volume where you need it (e.g., toe box). I don't have any experience with the injection foam liners, but I know that a Zip Fit is basically a beefier version of the stock liner.

Intuitions are a decent liner for many boots, especially touring boots, but they're just not the right tool for a plug, IMHO.

**stuckathuntermtn** · 04-28-2018, 08:14 PM

There's different thicknesses and stiffnesses of Intuition liners. And they are warm.

**Banh Mi** · 04-28-2018, 09:42 PM

Nordica custom foams sound legit, but it’s one and done fit right? No modifications afterwards? That might be the best for me trying to take up space in a plug though. I’m trying to take up volume in the recommended size plug, so in reality, it’s not that much space. I would guess.

I just don’t wanna take up space with tongue shims and bon-tec, and mess with my foot placement. I get weird pressure points on my shin from tongue shims, and a hot spot on top of my heel from the bon-tec in 28.5 ZBs.

I heard the Zipfits you can add or take out cork/oil multiple times? I’ve heard they last a long time.

In the 27.5 ZB I have no footbed. I don’t need one in this beast, and I have no room lol. It feels great like that, but I use footbeds in all my other boots for sure.

This will be a process for me, FOR SURE. I dont expect it to take a week or two. And with the season coming to end soon, it probably wont be figured out until christmas.. that 27.5 zb definitely needs work on the sides of my foot, maybe half or 1mm on each side, but luckily feels great on the instep and length.

TBH, I find the 27.5 ZBs longer and more shaped in the toebox and instep, than any other consumer LV 130 27.5s I’ve ever tried on. But on the sides of my foot, I can definitely feel that 94mm last width

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**auvgeek** · 04-29-2018, 08:21 AM

Originally Posted by Betelgeuse

I just don’t wanna take up space with tongue shims and bon-tec, and mess with my foot placement. I get weird pressure points on my shin from tongue shims, and a hot spot on top of my heel from the bon-tec in 28.5 ZBs.

I heard the Zipfits you can add or take out cork/oil multiple times? I’ve heard they last a long time.

In the 27.5 ZB I have no footbed. I don’t need one in this beast, and I have no room lol. It feels great like that, but I use footbeds in all my other boots for sure.

Start with a footbed before you start trying to take up volume with bontec shims. Zipfit has a pretty thick tongue (which is one reason it didn't work for me), so that should help. And yes, you can add their OM-Fit multiple times, but it's kind of expensive so I would start with whatever liner is closest. Maybe the Grand Prix or World Cup. I've never used a ZipFit personally, but people claim to get 500-1000 days out of them. Whereas, IME, you're lucky if you get 100+ days out of an Intuition liner.

Also: have your bootfitter grind the hot spots (in my case, basically the whole shell) before anything else. Even if you need a punch, grinding breaks the surface tension of the plastic, making it easier to punch. And then of course, you can grind more after it's punched, too. At least that's my understanding.

Originally Posted by stuckathuntermtn

There's different thicknesses and stiffnesses of Intuition liners.

Yes of course. I was talking about the plug version of intuitions, of which I've owned all (HD Race, PW plug, and Plug Race). Because none of them have a neoprene toe box like the stock Lange liner or ZipFit, the forefoot and toe box is just too thick. And the foam is compressible (by definition), so they don't transfer power especially well compared to a leather lace-up liner or ZipFit. Have you ever owned a plug boot?

**swerve** · 04-30-2018, 05:59 PM

Originally Posted by Betelgeuse

Zipfit is definitely on my list. What about those nordica foam liners?

Are the intuition plug liners much stiffer than regular intuition liners?

Where I am at for next season, is experimenting with taking up volume in the 28.5 plug, and making space in the 27.5.

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I've got some 28.5 zipfit world cup liners I need to get rid of since I went down a shell size last year. They have about 150 days in them, never been heated and no cork added or removed. The tongues are pretty thick and took up enough room around my shin so I didn't need any shims which I need with pretty much every boot. Shoot me a PM if you're interested.

**DropCliffsNotBombs** · 05-01-2018, 08:32 AM

Why are race boots narrow? Same reason that ice skates are narrow. Better finite control.

**stuckathuntermtn** · 05-03-2018, 11:23 AM

God no, I've never owned a plug boot. I wouldn't do that to myself. I did have some Lange Comp 120 Low Fits, which were plug-adjacent, and why I started getting frostbite in my toes.
I think somewhere like Tahoe, or even Colorado, is going to require more picky liner selection because of the warm temps. In Montana, it can be really cold. Skiing 90 or so flex Salomons at Moonlight in 08 in all the cold, dry powder, they were hard as a brick (or they seemed so at the time. I've gotten bigger and stronger). After the move to Missoula, the warmer temps really made the softer boots suck. And even with all the snow, we've had some warm-ish winters, so you can really feel your foot bouncing around sometimes skiing in 30+ degrees. So, I guess I get what you're saying, Auv.

**auvgeek** · 05-03-2018, 11:40 AM

Yeah, I skied the ZBs in Whitefish during a pretty cold spell. Not Bozeman cold, but cold enough for me. Boot gloves kept my feet reasonably warm, but I had to hit the lodge every few hours for a warm drink. Also had to drive back to town with my boots on and heaters cranked just to get them off. The whole time I was thinking that there is absolutely no point in me skiing a plug boot in sub-0F temps.

**SumJongGuy** · 05-03-2018, 12:14 PM

Originally Posted by hutash

Less wind resistance, it is why they go so fast.

Originally Posted by Skidog

I heard that's only if they're red.

Get the red ones

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Originally Posted by DropCliffsNotBombs

Why are race boots narrow? Same reason that ice skates are narrow. Better finite control.

Also, since ski width and lift are highly restricted, a narrower boot can achieve higher angles without booting out. The top TOP folks will do everything they can to avoid punching them out any wider.

**splat** · 05-03-2018, 12:29 PM

Originally Posted by hutash

Less wind resistance, it is why they go so fast.

Actually, it's to prevent boot-out.

DOh! Sum Jong beat me to it.

Originally Posted by Betelgeuse

Funny how many bootfitters recommend I go with the big 28, and fill up space from the get go... Too many times.

Absolutely doing people a HUDGE disservice with that bullshit. I think it's a dumbfuck shop thing to keep dumbass jongs from coming back complaining that the boots have tight spots. Which is what you want so the blowouts leave it less tight but with that snug feeling. The other version of that is shop idiots who press a spot so far out you could fit a six pack in it.

**Banh Mi** · 05-03-2018, 01:02 PM

Originally Posted by auvgeek

Yeah, I skied the ZBs in Whitefish during a pretty cold spell. Not Bozeman cold, but cold enough for me. Boot gloves kept my feet reasonably warm, but I had to hit the lodge every few hours for a warm drink. Also had to drive back to town with my boots on and heaters cranked just to get them off. The whole time I was thinking that there is absolutely no point in me skiing a plug boot in sub-0F temps.

How many hours did it take your bootfitter to get your wide foot into the 92mm last? How long did the process take to finalize? Days, weeks, months? This is my first plug, wondering what to expect. It seems like a step by step process. I’m just hoping to have the fit dialed by December lol.

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